452 Head performance

I understand that there could be a thousand different setups that affect ultimate engine hp and torque, but does anyone have info on the performance potential of the 452 castings? I know they share alot of the same characteristics of the 906 with the advantage of hardened seats. My cylinder head guy says with work on the flow bench he has worked the 452's to 600+ hp. I am considering a 500 in. stroker kit from 440 source to combine with these reworked heads along with an Edelbrock rpm dual plane intake, no cam selection as yet. This will be a streetable combo with trips to the strip on occasion. I was tempted to buy a set of RPM heads but my head guy says he can work with the 452's...

Advice...experience...results?
I have looked through the site here at other 440 builds with great interest but hope that someone else has walked this line before.

BTW she'll be powering a mini tubbed 66 Belvedere.
Thanks in advance.

Mopar or no car!

452's have induction hardened seats. You do much grinding on them during a valve job, you will cut through the hardness.

A 346 or 452 has a slightly flatter intake runner than a 906, but has more short side radius in the exhaust runners than a 906. So what little you loose in one place, you gain in the other.

They (452's) will work well. Anyone who tells you differently will probably try to convince you the heads on a 383 "Magnum" or a 440 "Magnum" were different than a "non magnum" motor.

Run away....as fast as you can

I am using them on my 69 six pack Bee 523 stroker simply because they were on the engine I had built. I built the car to run in F.A.S.T. if it ever gets to the southwest as well as for the street, and figured even though they were not 906s that no one would protest it. They are pretty much the same and most people THINK the 906s are superior. My engine builder said there was actually some small advantage to these heads but I don't remember what it was. No matter anyway as they are totally perfromance modified anyway.

696pack,
So what kind of numbers does the 69 run in the 1/4 or 1/8th mile? Have you ever had your baby on a dyno?

696pack,
So what kind of numbers does the 69 run in the 1/4 or 1/8th mile? Have you ever had your baby on a dyno?

Never had it on a dyno OR at the strip--yet.

The engine, rear end, interior, engine compartment, and trunk are done, but the exterior still needs to be painted. It is not real respectable looking at this point. When I get it painted I will head for the strip. So far all I have done is a few short "test drives." The car "feels like" it is a mid 11 second car but that remains to be seen. The rear end is a 4.56:1 and I PLAN (there is that word again:rolling:) to install a Passon performance overdrive 4 speed in the car eventually.

This is a copy and paste from another thread that tells the story on my car, so you can judge for yourself what kind of times you might think the car will be capable of. I would like to hear anyones thoughts on it.

I have a 1969 440 six pack Super Bee that has a new 523 stroker in it with factory exhaust manifolds. I built the car to somewhat F.A.S.T. standards as I like my cars to maintain a pretty much stock appearance. I have not yet had it to the track but it certainly "feels" like it will run high to mid 11s. The cam is a roller with 112 degree lobe seperation. Intake .022 valve lash hot .630 valve lift 284 duration Exhaust .024 .608 288, and after indexing the lift is 420/244 I and 405/252 E. The stock heads were ported and flowed. Of course it is balanced and blueprinted. For some reason the compression is not shown on the blueprint sheet, but it will run on pump premium. I have the stock original six pack intake and carbs with all of the Promax add ons. With all of the parts and labor I have around $11K in it including R&R.

Some of the winning F.A.S.T. guys are running up to 14:1 compression. We do not have F.A.S.T. racing here in the southwest and even if they did I would not go to those extremes. I want something that is still streetable for a 2 hour drive or more. My car is borderline as it has some around town surging due to the cam.

Sounds good to me, keep us posted and thanks for your interest. I will post flow bench numbers on my heads as they progress. I would be satisfied with a car that ran in the eleven's.

Talk to a buddy of mine wgo is MoPar all day long. He's a pro head porter for a few decades now. Here is his new web site link; http://bjrracing.com/
He'll answer your questions about the big block heads. He also races a big block.
Click here; http://bjrracing.com/big_block_heads.htm

I run 906 heads on the mild 440 in my 63. I did some porting on them myself and all I can tell you is that the eng makes right around 500 flywheel hp going by the 1/4 mile mph. It has pushed my 3700 lb 63 to 11.50's so far. Its not a stroker as it is stock stroke and I use the MP .557 solid cam. But if it were me I would want to take advantage of the cubes and run a better head then the factory heads. The Eddy's will outflow the factory heads stock for stock and ported Eddy's will flow better then worked factory 452's or 906's. There are better heads then the Eddy's or Stealth heads but they will cost more. To me the Eddy's work nice on a mild stroker. Ron

http://i338.photobucket.com/albums/n429/383-manallmopar/the%2063/meatmd.jpg

Thanks to all that replied, helped a great deal with my decision...

I also used the 452's on my .055 over 440, because of availability and the hardened seats. we ported them to near max wedge size and profile and installed 2.18/1.81 valves. the engine pulls hard from 3000 to 7000 rpm and love it. the only catch-when i removed my 1 7/8 primary cheapie headers and installed some Doug's 2" primary headers during my cam change, i realized that the 452 heads had a "lip" cast into the exhaust flange, just below the valve cover rail. this prevents the header flange from sealing against the head-I was pissed, and the people at Doug's had no idea either. so, I don't know if this is true for all 452 castings, or just certain years. but be careful, i found out after the headers were in, and had to work over fresh paint to cut a 45 degree bevel on the top of the header flange with a die grinder, and then re-install using double gaskets and ultra-copper. no leak's though!:edgy:

I'll look out for the fit up issue, thanks!

I failed to mention in my posts above that my use of a stock type head is strickly to adhear to F.A.S.T. type rule venue. If that was not a concern I would have bought Edelbrock or 440 Source Aluminum heads.

I don't think you can beat the price of the out of the box, read to bolt on performance vs. all out porting on the 906 or 452 heads and the cost of the porting work these days (if you don't do your own and have to pay someone else) makes the aftermarket aluminum heads very attractive.

Does anyone else have experience with the 440 source aluminum heads? My cylinder head guy reported big inconsistencies in flow, port volume etc between runners. They are definetely priced right.

Unless you have to adhere to certain race rules, the Edelbrock RPM or 440 Source 84cc Aluminum head is vastly better than the iron stock head. They weigh half as much and should a crack develop being Aluminum they can be heliarced. But the most important feature is they are closed chambered heads. All the BB heads from 68 up were open chambered. The closed chamber allows you to build a quench engine which helps reduce detonation which can quickly destroy an engine. You do need to increase the compression ratio by approx 1 point when going to the Aluminum to compensate for heat loss due to the higher thermal conductivity of the aluminum vs cast iron--approx 10 to 10.3 to 1 for the AL vs 9 to 9.3 to 1 for the cast iron heads. As has been noted, these aftermarket heads flow better than ported cast iron pieces. Money wise, by the time you work over the cast iron heads you can buy a set of aluminum ones noting that you can't just bolt them on out of the box as advertised. They do need to be checked over for proper valve sealing, guide clearance, and rocker/spring retainer clearance.

To the original poster.

I think that one of the first things you need to determine is weather or not you are going to run headers or exhaust manifolds. From there you will need to consider your cam choice and compression in order to determine what heads are necessary. Other things to consider are if you are trying to keep the exterior engine appearance stock or if you don't care.

You have to remember that it is not hard to create a 500 h.p. 440 with stock cubes, carb upgrade, stock heads with a little porting, an upgraded cam, blueprinting, and headers. I also think that blueprinting is often overlooked or underrated as a hugh power adder to any engine.

The factory exhaust manifolds are the bottleneck or limiting h.p. factor on any big block so the upgrading of heads weather they be aftermarket aluminum or factory type iron heads are probably not as big of a consideration (except for the weight savings) if you are going to run stock manifolds. There are a couple of exceptions such as the Max Wedge and Hemi exhaust manifolds which flow far better then the 440 H.P. manifolds.

I will be running headers, and a stock appearance is not critical as I am restifying the 66 base 318 Belvedere HT. Intake will likely be a dual plane (performer RPM). Streetable with the odd trip to the strip for a little fun. the car came sub frame connected and mini tubbed with a MP spring relocation kit installed and a 6 point cage (cage will be removed for streetable functionality). 500+ horse would be my ultimate goal. No cam choice as yet. haven't decided whether to run power brakes or manual (discs will be incorporated). So...depending how lumpy we go will help me decide whether or not power brakes will be used. Anyone running a similar setup have suggestions?
Thanks 696pack.

I will be running headers, and a stock appearance is not critical as I am restifying the 66 base 318 Belvedere HT. Intake will likely be a dual plane (performer RPM). Streetable with the odd trip to the strip for a little fun. the car came sub frame connected and mini tubbed with a MP spring relocation kit installed and a 6 point cage (cage will be removed for streetable functionality). 500+ horse would be my ultimate goal. No cam choice as yet. haven't decided whether to run power brakes or manual (discs will be incorporated). So...depending how lumpy we go will help me decide whether or not power brakes will be used. Anyone running a similar setup have suggestions?
Thanks 696pack.

With street manners being a consideration you need to build your engine around your cam. You can get away with more cam with a 4 speed rather than an auto. Mine is borderline with the 4 speed as it likes to surge a little idling around town. You should have no problem obtaining 500+ h.p. with headers.

If I were you I would be looking for a set of 1967 440 915 heads. They are close chamber and easy to make a quench motor which will run on punp gas with higher compression, which is another consideration for a street car.

Indy ezs are another good head choice. if it will be a streeter the aluminum heads will help with detonation on pump gas. You should be good to 10.5 to 1 with aluminum.

Not that this late reply will make a difference in your decision, but my $.02 on the 452's is this. They have the flat intake port, which is similar to the old 516 and even the Max Wedge heads and according to the old race bulletins that port design doesn't flow as well as the later stuff. In 67, probably because engineering learned something, we get the 915 with the raised floor followed by the 906 and both have improved flow over the older stuff. Even the later DC stage IV and V heads are based on the higher floor, or "improved short side radius". The 906 (because of the open chamber) I think is really an emissions version of the 915. Lowering CR = less thermal efficiency, but more important for the EPA = lower oxides of nitrogen produced. An old race bulletin states that the 915 head flows within 95% of the max Wedge head. With it's superior short side radius, which I think offers a more laminar flow through the port, together with the quench area, you can't get a better production head for a big block than the 915. It's been proven by pocket porting and big valves that the 452's work, but I would still stick with the 915 or the 906 or just go aftermarket.

I think the number one reason for the growth in popularity of the 452 and later castings is because these days they are more available than the earlier stuff, plus have the hardened seats. I have a set of very late (346?) castings if someone wants them.

I realize that the 915's would have been the better choice, and perhaps should have waited as now I have come across a set...but the 452's are ported and flowed with some impressive numbers. My head specialist actually prefers the 452's over the 906's due to the improved flow characteristics on the intake side. The intake is flowing 284 cfm @ .507 lift, I won't quote the exhaust side as I don't remember the exact figure. He figures he can get a little more out of them if necessary. I have to make the decision now to go to the 2.18/1.81 valves over the stock configuration. I realize that I will have to have hardened seats installed if I go this route as this will be a pump gas motor. I am impressed with my cylinder head guys work to say the least...it helps when me's a Mopar fanatic as well...Cam selection next and purchasing a set of valves. He likes Ferrea first and Manley second for valves, on this engine will the Ferrea 5000 series be enough or should I go with the 6000 series? As for the bumpstick, I would like a little vacuum at idle and will be using a stall converter (28-3200 rpm range). With all the experience here can anyone offer thier tested and true experiences with camshaft/stall converter selection? I have 3:91 and 4:88 gear sets, likely will run the 3:91's or even find a set of 3:55's
Thanks. all input is valued...

At this point I would look at dollars to dollars vs your 452's and newly acquired 915's. if you have to put big valves in the 452's then the benefit of the induction hardened seats is gone.

I have no doubt that the 452's can flow big numbers. A 2" hole in a piece of sheet metal will flow big numbers, but I don't think airflow numbers are the whole story. You have to look at wet flow also. I'm no head expert, and I would really like to read what your head guy says about the 452's as he may shed some new light on my thinking - maybe they wet flow better? It's just that every wedge head that was claimed to be superior has the nice short side radius. The 440 Source heads have the short side radius and I'll bet the Edelbrock heads have it too - and they are not designed for emissions. One more thing to consider is the max wedge head with the raised roof and flat floor used tulip intake valves. Perhaps this helped smooth out the flow while going into the cylinder? Olds 455 and FE Ford heads have a flat floor and it's well known that if you want those heads to flow you have to raise the roof. Maybe try tulip intake valves in the 452's? I have a couple of old max wedge valves lying around I could lend for a flow test comparison.

Then there is the question of carb of FI. If you only move air you can get away with murder on the intake port. Just look at my 02 Durango 4.7 vs. the 62 413 long ram set up. Replace the throttle body with a carb on the 4.7 and it probably won't run as well, with some cylinders running lean, etc.... One thing these engines have in common is a very long intake runner, which has been proven to create a big flat torque curve. The longer the intake runner the lower RPM peak torque will occur.

I have stated my thoughts on cam selection here a few times, so maybe look up some older posts.

I would really like to see some detail pics of the rear wheel area on your car. I also have a 66 Belvedere and some day it will get a monster 440 built from spare parts I have lying around the shop. I will need some tire!

I've said this before. 452s have more short side radius on the exhaust side than a 906 does. It isn't unheard of to build up the short side on the intake runner to compensate for any shortcomings one might think they have. I've never done it, but I know it has been done with epoxy.

I also find it hard to believe a 915 will flow 90% of a max wedge head. Maybe if you hog the shit out of them then epoxy up all the holes you'll make in them. Their ports aren't any bigger than a 906, but maxi's are.

Meep meep, its only coincidence that my head guy is flowing/tweaking a couple sets of Edelbrock performer heads right now and the numbers he's getting out of the 452's match the as manufactured numbers (before porting)on the BB RPM heads up to the .507lift range, where he sees the rpm heads flowing well into the 300 cfm range. I definetly am not a head expert, just went looking for the most economical/reliable configuration and have traded mechanical work for bodywork. He has not overground the heads to the point of repairs involving epoxy, I will post pictures of his work on the heads as I am impressed. I am looking at a MP purple shaft cam hyd. profile, .509/.509 lift, 292 duration, advertised rpm range 2600-6000. If I purchase a 28-3200 stall coverter combined with my 3:91's I believe I am on the right track. I have to measure my slicks height (two pairs one for the strip one for the street before I do my final gear ratio calc's). I haven't bought the cam yet, just priced it out today.

I will see how these 452's do, I will have hardened seats installed with the larger valves. The 6000 series Ferrea valves are a tulip configuration I believe but twice the price of the 5000 series...more research needed!

I will post pictures as I get into the fabrication of my mini tubs, I am going to try and keep it looking stock. I would love to see pic's of your 66 Meep meep. Thanks boys.

Have you guys read the latest issue of Mopar Action? feb 09 issue...Page 70, article named Old man and the C. Interesting. Stock configured (C/S Stock eliminator class) 69 6bbl Road Runner runs 10.80's with a stock bore (.030 over 440, cast iron 906 cylinder head) Stock 6 bbl cam. Heads have been massaged admitedly in the article. Car weighs 3,725 lbs. Electric water pump, nice ignition, worked over carbs, Cal track mono leafs with a Dana sporting 4:89 gears. Love it.

Good articles I came across, you must read all links to get the whole story.

Introduction to Mopar cylinder heads:
http://www.moparmusclemagazine.com/images/mopp_0608_mopar_cylinder_heads/index.html

Part 1, Flow bench results
http://www.moparmusclemagazine.com/techarticles/5115_cylinder_heads/index.html

Part 2, Flow bench w/porting results
http://www.moparmusclemagazine.com/techarticles/5118_cylinder_heads_ii/index.html

Thanks to everyone that has helped, information is wealth!

:HappyNewYear:

I understand that there could be a thousand different setups that affect ultimate engine hp and torque, but does anyone have info on the performance potential of the 452 castings? I know they share alot of the same characteristics of the 906 with the advantage of hardened seats. My cylinder head guy says with work on the flow bench he has worked the 452's to 600+ hp. I am considering a 500 in. stroker kit from 440 source to combine with these reworked heads along with an Edelbrock rpm dual plane intake, no cam selection as yet. This will be a streetable combo with trips to the strip on occasion. I was tempted to buy a set of RPM heads but my head guy says he can work with the 452's...

Advice...experience...results?
I have looked through the site here at other 440 builds with great interest but hope that someone else has walked this line before.

BTW she'll be powering a mini tubbed 66 Belvedere.
Thanks in advance.

Mopar or no car!

Depending on how much core shift is in them it's going to take a ferocious amount of time/money to get them to flow in the 280 cfm range...just buy some BARE alum castings from 440'sRus and port those.Then buy some good valves and springs and retainers for them.That's what I do.
Nothing wrong with worked on iron heads as long as someone else paid for the work and you pick them up for 700-1000.I have guys selling killer iron heads that they have spent 2500-3000 on to get them to flow 300 cfm only to sell them for the price of the hardware (valves/springs ect).
Not every iron head can be ported to over 280...maybe 10/15 % can get a maximum effort.

Thanks! I will have a look at 440's R us. I already have the 452's ported with apparent success. I doubt this will be my last build, or modification to this motor. All ifo is appreciated.

Do you have a website address for these guys? 440's R us?

66...

I should have said 440 source...

Meep meep, its only coincidence that my head guy is flowing/tweaking a couple sets of Edelbrock performer heads right now and the numbers he's getting out of the 452's match the as manufactured numbers (before porting)on the BB RPM heads up to the .507lift range, where he sees the rpm heads flowing well into the 300 cfm range. I definetly am not a head expert, just went looking for the most economical/reliable configuration and have traded mechanical work for bodywork. He has not overground the heads to the point of repairs involving epoxy, I will post pictures of his work on the heads as I am impressed. I am looking at a MP purple shaft cam hyd. profile, .509/.509 lift, 292 duration, advertised rpm range 2600-6000. If I purchase a 28-3200 stall coverter combined with my 3:91's I believe I am on the right track. I have to measure my slicks height (two pairs one for the strip one for the street before I do my final gear ratio calc's). I haven't bought the cam yet, just priced it out today.

I will see how these 452's do, I will have hardened seats installed with the larger valves. The 6000 series Ferrea valves are a tulip configuration I believe but twice the price of the 5000 series...more research needed!

I will post pictures as I get into the fabrication of my mini tubs, I am going to try and keep it looking stock. I would love to see pic's of your 66 Meep meep. Thanks boys.

As long as he's comparing have him flow a 906 head (same port as the 915). Again, I don't think it's all about the CFM. Wet flow, bore size, valve shrouding, etc... all plays a role in making HP. I have read that tulip valves don't work in wedge heads as well as Hemi heads, but the Max used them and they have a flat floor. The 340 also uses them and they have a short side radius. Go figure. Like I said, I will be happy to send you a 2.08" max wedge valve for comparison (as long as i get it back) so you don't have to buy a set to find out they don't work. I think raising the roof on the 452's would be a huge improvement in flow.

3.91's may not be enough, but it sounds like you are on the right track. I ran a 4.88 dana in my 68 RR with a 383 and a .528 MP cam. It loved it :yes:

I spoke to the guy at 440 source and he said the 906/915 head flows about 220 CFM without porting and his aluminum heads flow 280 CFM without porting. I may buy a set of Edelbrocks or the Source heads for an interim engine I'm building to kill any curiosity I have. My 66 is the R&D vehicle. I'm thinking Velcro motor mounts!!!

Here's my 66 in the horrible CA snow storm.:rolling:

The green one.
http://www.forbbodiesonly.com/moparforum/showthread.php?t=1582

The guy that did the head work for my 440 six pack Bee that was 610HP on pump gas told me when I had my 452's that he could spend countless hours porting the heck out of them and they will never flow as well as stock Edelbrock RPMs out of the box. I took his advice, my compression was 10.1, he did some porting on the Eldos as well, .558 lift cam 260@50 (big lopey solid cam) and that netted 610HP. I also had full roller rockers. Saw 7000rpm a few times but regularly saw 6600. As a start, I had the MP .484 cam and the Hensley prepped 452s and the engine dynoed 490HP. Big jump with not a lot of money. There's my experience.

Thanks guys, helps me wade through the jungle of information with actual experience. BTW Mee-meep, that ain't snow in your picture...lol I have about 2 feet on the ground here in the sunny Okanagan where temps range from 0 to 100 F in the course of a year. thanks for the link to your Belvedere, green isn't that common, I added it to my collection.
Cheers, I will keep posting my progress with cam selection, gearing etc.