A12

I have been kicking around the idea of converting my Road Runner to a A12 clone. It' a nom driver. I figure 3-4k in parts/motor to do the conversion. Would that increase the value of the car as a clone?

Depends on whos buying it. To me I would rather have a well done A12 clone then a correct 383 car.

Depends on whos buying it. To me I would rather have a well done A12 clone then a correct 383 car.

A couple of years ago it would have been an investment, but with the declining market the clones have taken a big hit. Right now a real deal car can be bought for around 60K. So putting it into perspective would put a nice clone around 30K or so? How much is a really nice 383 car bringing?
I know of an absolutely gorgous B5 hardtop with all #'s matching for and asking price of 27K.
KID

I think to make a correct clone it will cost more than 3-4K... I'm doing this currently with my Road Runner... costs a bit but I think it is worth it.

The air cleaner will cost 3-4k. Just focus on building yourself a good, safe hot rod and throw a repop hood on it if you want one. :)

Probably about 1800 for intake and carbs, another couple hundred for the fuel lines and brackets, 2500+ for the breather, 500 for a repop hood

You want H wheels and red stripes too?

To make an A12 road runner clone you need the following....

1. Intake/cars/air cleaner
2. Slightly modified engine wiring
3. Fresh Air Hood
4. Rear Hood brackets and pins
5. Dana 60 differential

Depends on whos buying it. To me I would rather have a well done A12 clone then a correct 383 car.

I agree with that.

Gee...owning one how could I forget to list the pins, brackets, and Dana. I must be:tired:

Don't forget repop 054 26-inch radiator $1500, 26-inch core suppoet $325 plus bodywork.....beefy springs.....depending on how much the bug bites you on the details

If you are Building it to Drive, have Fun, and enjoy then build it for that reason. Most people at local car shows just come to look at nice paint, hear loud pipes, see classic muscle cars. Most don't know the difference between a 440 or a 273 let alone B-Body, A-body etc.Build the Car that you want to drive. Personally can't see spending extra Big $$$$ to build a Clone to Drive around.Remember no matter what you do to the car it is STILL a "CLONE" not an Original #s matching car.

Just My thoughts, I'm sure some won't agree

Do it ! I love the A12 cars and if I was building a 69 B I would definetly make it an A12 clone. :yes: Ron

Don't forget repop 054 26-inch radiator $1500, 26-inch core suppoet $325 plus bodywork.....beefy springs.....depending on how much the bug bites you on the details

I got lucky on that one... my RR is already optioned for the HD cooling package :tongueflap:

Don't forget the 15" rims, chrome lug nuts and G-70X 15 Redline Goodyear Polyglas tires!!

Why is the air cleaner so much? There isn't a reproduction?

There is a big difference between a true "clone" and a "look alike." A clone should have all original type numbers matching parts.

A look a like on the other hand can be done much cheaper, which is what I would do.

Put a repro hood, repro fiberglass air cleaner, repro intake and carbs, cheap 15"X7" steel wheels, etc. on it and call it good.

If the car is an automatic I would just leave the 8 3/4" rear and put the gears of choice in it. If it is a 4 speed depending on how I built the 440 would determine if I needed a Hemi 4 speed and Dana rear end.

Either way you go about it, in the end the car will be worth the value of a non-original engine 383 car and the sum total of the used repro parts you put on it.

It would be a fun street/strip racer even for F.A.S.T. racing. Besides, who can see the V.I.N. or other part numbers as your kicking their ass down the 1320.

Why is the air cleaner so much? There isn't a reproduction?


There are TWO repros. one is a metal and very close to the original that only a trained eye will spot and there is a fiberglass base unit as well. The top is reproed in metal for about $100.00 and may even be available for less in fiberglass.

Since originals can still be discerned from the repros they still bring big money.

I bought mine knowing that I wanted to make it an F6 "tribute" car. I understand the need for the hood, carb/intake, rad, air cleaner, etc...but I started thinking about the things that "normal" people don't notice -- a missing Dana rear for example.

Here's the thing: Do I want to put enough money into it to impress an actual A12 owner, or is it enough to make people give a thumbs up as you're driving down the street. When I bought it I had in my mind "no expense spared! This MUST be an A12, M-code car!" But, the more I get to looking at what it actually costs to make a "correct" clone it's staggering. Just finding a dash with the rally gauges made me wince.

For craps sakes, I just finished doing the brakes on my car (new drums, pads and new lug nuts) and THAT cost almost $800.00!!!

Just takes time I guess....

I bought mine knowing that I wanted to make it an F6 "tribute" car. I understand the need for the hood, carb/intake, rad, air cleaner, etc...but I started thinking about the things that "normal" people don't notice -- a missing Dana rear for example.

Here's the thing: Do I want to put enough money into it to impress an actual A12 owner, or is it enough to make people give a thumbs up as you're driving down the street. When I bought it I had in my mind "no expense spared! This MUST be an A12, M-code car!" But, the more I get to looking at what it actually costs to make a "correct" clone it's staggering. Just finding a dash with the rally gauges made me wince.
For craps sakes, I just finished doing the brakes on my car (new drums, pads and new lug nuts) and THAT cost almost $800.00!!!

Just takes time I guess....


You must have a Coronet as the RRs had a standard 120 mph dash.

You have to remember, your dealing with people that are "in the know" on a web site like this. Most old car enthuisiests don't even know what an A12 is.

As I said in my post above, I would not spend the time and money necessary to make a true "clone."

I read on the A12 forum all the time that members that OWN these cars often didn't even know they were built until shortly before they bought their cars just a few years ago.

The vast majority of people that will recognize the car as a six pack will spot the hood and decals first and won't even know what came standard in the A12 package. They will be more interested in seeing under the hood to see the six pack.

The guy that knows more about the cars will walk up to the windshield and look for the "M" in the V.I.N. to see if it is real, so your not going to fool him anyway. On top of that, MANY of these guys will be pissed off that your car is wearing original parts that THEY believe should be reserved for "real" cars.

Yes, I have a Coronet 440 series, that I probably overpaid for just so I could make it into an M-code car. Thats' the other thing; the seller knew that guys are looking for "440 series" cars to make them into A12's so he wasn't budging on the price very much. Since that's what I wanted, I had to shrug my shoulders and pay da' man.

For what I'm doing, if I can find repop parts, I'll always go there first. BUT, if the only way I can put something on my car is to use an original, then I don't want to hear anyone saying it belongs on an actual A12 car. That's just being elitist.

I guess what I'd like, short of actually owning an A12 car, is to have someone that owns one, look at my car and say "gee, he did a really good job!"

"I guess what I'd like, short of actually owning an A12 car, is to have someone that owns one, look at my car and say "gee, he did a really good job!"

Yeah, well, that is the way it SHOULD be, but there are way too many people out there that will give it a quick once over and and walk away shaking their heads saying "just another clone" rather than really looking at the car and thinking about all of the work it took to get the car to that point.

I for one can appreciate a nice clone! They make a lot of sense to me! I'd use repop parts where possible just to save costs. Ultimatly I'd use a real Bee or Road Runner to begin with. I don't think the Dana is necesarry at all unless your really holding true to the A12 theme or competeing in the Pure Stocks or FAST. As mentioned before you have to be prepared for the disappointment as people read the VIN which we all do. I do it too, but not to dis anyones car I really like to know what I'm looking at! I don't dismiss a nice car just because it's a clone. Sad but true many Mopar people do!
KID

I for one can appreciate a nice clone! They make a lot of sense to me! I'd use repop parts where possible just to save costs. Ultimatly I'd use a real Bee or Road Runner to begin with. I don't think the Dana is necesarry at all unless your really holding true to the A12 theme or competeing in the Pure Stocks or FAST. As mentioned before you have to be prepared for the disappointment as people read the VIN which we all do. I do it too, but not to dis anyones car I really like to know what I'm looking at! I don't dismiss a nice car just because it's a clone. Sad but true many Mopar people do!
KID


I agree with this 100%

I for one can appreciate a nice clone! They make a lot of sense to me! I'd use repop parts where possible just to save costs. Ultimatly I'd use a real Bee or Road Runner to begin with. I don't think the Dana is necesarry at all unless your really holding true to the A12 theme or competeing in the Pure Stocks or FAST. As mentioned before you have to be prepared for the disappointment as people read the VIN which we all do. I do it too, but not to dis anyones car I really like to know what I'm looking at! I don't dismiss a nice car just because it's a clone. Sad but true many Mopar people do!
KID

Good take Steve.

Ray

Real A12's rock! Clones are for sheep farmers and Tributes are Wannabee's! But that's ok, I hear those things all the time... and I still get the nod or thumbs up. Build it anyway you want! As long as you don't try to pass it off as a real one with tags off a car that was wreaked or crushed years ago. Hell mine's not even a 69... when I finally find a decent SIXPACK intake and carbs for my 440... I'm calling it a 68 WANNA BEE A11! HAVE FUN!!!:rolling:

Clones are good it you want to drive and enjoy the cars, I wouldn't risk smashing a real Hemi or A12 car on the road with all those idiots that are out there.

Clones are good it you want to drive and enjoy the cars, I wouldn't risk smashing a real Hemi or A12 car on the road with all those idiots that are out there.

We'll have to agree to disagree on that, regardless of value. To me, not driving them defeats the purpose of owning them. They're cars, not static displays.

My A12 is a driver currently - she's no trailer queen. Currently I'm getting everything lined up to make her pristine again - and when she is I'll still be slamming the pinion snubber up against the floorboard. I have other cars that are already fully restored and they're no museum pieces either, so I'm not just talking out of my ass.

Ray

Here is our "clone". It started out as a 383 4-speed bench seat Super Bee. Fortunately a previous owner went through all the extra costs to build it as it sits today, so I can't vouch for the price, but to do it right, I bet it is up in the $10K plus range when you factor in every nut and bolt. I'm sure there a couple noticeable things, but for the most part anyone who sees it thinks it's the real deal.

Mine's a "look alike" except for the wheels,and (ahem,)filled-in sidemarkers

I have been kicking around the idea of converting my Road Runner to a A12 clone. It' a nom driver. I figure 3-4k in parts/motor to do the conversion. Would that increase the value of the car as a clone?

Concerning the cost/value, a clone will never be worth anymore than the sum total of the parts. Why? Because anyone can duplicate what you plan to do whereas with a "real" A12 there are only so many of them. That and the condition of each individual one will determine "their" value.

That being said Your car will always maintain the value IT has as a 383 RR as long as you keep all of the parts to convert it back. After all, what you are doing is the same thing the factory did as they started out with a 383 RR to build an A12 RR.

The cost will vary to do the conversion depending on what you have, what you have to buy, and how truley accurate you want to be. If your car happens to be a 4 speed it would be recommended that you install a Hemi box as the factory thought it was important and that would be a good lead to follow. If your car is an auto then you can stay with the standard 727 as that was also what the factory did. many 383 RRs have already been upgraded to a 440 and if this is the case with your car your 1/2 way to the conversion.

If it were me I would buy "look alike" 15" steel wheels rather than original A12 wheels which are expensive. That is unless you don't like that part of the A12then use the wheels of your choice as most A12 owners did "day two." You can buy the wheels, intake, carbs, linkage, hood, decals, and air cleaner repro. The main thing is that I would want it to appear as original to a casual glance as you are not going to fool a knowledgable looker for very long anyway. No one can read the V.I.N. when it is driving by or blowing their doors off anyway.

Parts needed:

440 Engine
Wheels?
4 speed?
Auto--higher stall converter
intake
carbs
linkage
air cleaner
hood
decals
suspension?--The first several A12 cars had the standard S13 Rallye suspension but MOST of the cars had the S15 Hemi suspension. If you want to upgrade the suspension you will have to change the rear springs and torsion bars.

These are really the only things that are different between a 383 and a 440-6 Barrel RR.

R.I.P. Tadjou. You're missed.

Were there any modifications to the unibody, such as torque box braces or braces under the pinion snubber?

"R.I.P. Tadjou. You're missed."
Did I miss something?

Were there any modifications to the unibody, such as torque box braces or braces under the pinion snubber?

A12s are an odd build as they came down the assembly line as a 383 car and had the A12 package items added to the car as it was built. Check the package list for those items.

They did NOT have torque boxes. All Mopars have a reinforcement plate for the pinion snubber, there is an extra plate welded over it on Hemi cars only.

The broadcast sheet on the A12s has 383 codes on it as well as some A12 specific items.

The best way to determine an A12 car is the "M" digit in the 5th position of the V.I.N. The original fender tag will have the A12 code designation on MOST of them, however a few early cars will not have it. Also, some of the early cars have the standard RR or SB rallye suspension rather than the Hemi suspension, on those cars it is reflected as such on the B/S.

A12s are an odd build as they came down the assembly line as a 383 car and had the A12 package items added to the car as it was built. Check the package list for those items.

They did NOT have torque boxes. All Mopars have a reinforcement plate for the pinion snubber, there is an extra plate welded over it on Hemi cars only.

The broadcast sheet on the A12s has 383 codes on it as well as some A12 specific items.

The best way to determine an A12 car is the "M" digit in the 5th position of the V.I.N. The original fender tag will have the A12 code designation on MOST of them, however a few early cars will not have it. Also, some of the early cars have the standard RR or SB rallye suspension rather than the Hemi suspension, on those cars it is reflected as such on the B/S.


True, I have argued this fact with several different people over the years, Glad you posted it. 2 of mine did have Torque Boxes, but I had an early build car that Did Not have them.

My friend had two back in the 70s/80s, both from the factory with torque boxes, so it must have been another one of those Chrysler hit and miss things.

My friend had two back in the 70s/80s, both from the factory with torque boxes, so it must have been another one of those Chrysler hit and miss things.

I think most or them Did have them, but there were a few Escapees that didn't.

No A12 car SHOULD have them and I have never heard a report of one with them. That being said there are many cars that should and many cars that should not have/don't have them.

It was quite common for 66-67 Hemi cars to not have them. ALL converts that I have seen DO have them regardless of engine. Many people don't know that converts also got FRONT torque boxes as well. TBs are VERY hit or miss on many big block cars on E bodies and show up on a lot of 4 speed A bodies as well. I think the intentions were to add them on 4 speed hipo cars but it was still hit or miss on them as well. I have HEARD of some /6 cars with TBs but have never seen one with my own eyes.

The seasoned, experienced Hemi guys know enough not to discount a Hemi car without the TBs but know that ALL Hemi cars had the triangular metal brace at the back rear spring hanger and the extra metal reinforcement in the snubber area that no other cars got.

Thanks for the info 6pack!

There is a big difference between a true "clone" and a "look alike." A clone should have all original type numbers matching parts.

A look a like on the other hand can be done much cheaper, which is what I would do.

Put a repro hood, repro fiberglass air cleaner, repro intake and carbs, cheap 15"X7" steel wheels, etc. on it and call it good.

If the car is an automatic I would just leave the 8 3/4" rear and put the gears of choice in it. If it is a 4 speed depending on how I built the 440 would determine if I needed a Hemi 4 speed and Dana rear end.

Either way you go about it, in the end the car will be worth the value of a non-original engine 383 car and the sum total of the used repro parts you put on it.

It would be a fun street/strip racer even for F.A.S.T. racing. Besides, who can see the V.I.N. or other part numbers as your kicking their ass down the 1320.


That's exactly right. Total parts value based on condition at time of sale. Let the "correct" parts go to the real cars. Have fun with it :grin:

Cool thread. I have a driver that I'm converting to an A12 clone but this is merely for external appearance not to win awards.

http://i842.photobucket.com/albums/zz350/moparholic4bbl/Raw%20my%20runner/DSC00207.jpg

I'll be keeping everything as is including the 383 4bbl.

Question:

How have some of you prepped, sanded, painted, and drilled your L.O. hoods if you have rebops? I want a realistic flat tone to the hood like the OG hoods but have yet to decide which hood to get from whom as I expect it to be near impossible and out of my price range to locate an original used A12 hood.

"R.I.P. Tadjou. You're missed."
Did I miss something?

He founded the MA Mopar club I'm in and died a couple of years ago from cancer. His Road Runner was sold, but his family ready to work on a Duster that he had.