GM small block VS. Mopar big block......

I am currently in the process of building a 69 Coronet that started out as a 383 car but dropped in a 440 from a motorhome. My car started out as a hobby but has turned into a competition between my brother and I. He's got a 68 Chevy Camaro w/ an efi Vortec 5.3 that he's done a cam swap and custom programming on. My understanding is these new aluminum Chevy motors are pretty quick in stock form. I have dressed up my 440 with an Edelbrock Performer RPM intake manifold, Edelbrock 750 carb, and mildly ported 906 heads. He obviously has a weight advantage as my Coronet is no skinny Minnie. He's deadset that technology will beat out displacement. Would my displacement alone be enough to put an end to our debacle? A couple big barriers I've come across is how little aftermarket support their seems to be for us Mopar guys without having to pay an arm and a leg and how little resources there is on the net compared to the Chevy guys! Any thoughts? We are betting on each others house down payments so I don't feel like shelling out $10K without a decent fight. Someone tell me he's wrong.

I don't see what the problem is. Chevies look like shit. I got into Mopars because I like the way they look. I've found that their engineering was great, and they were very fast, too. What is in top fuel now. Only the 426 Hemi is competitive, although in aftermarket version, so what do you want? It looks like you are just throwing parts at a car. Everything needs to work together. You don't want to overbuild anything, so you need to know either how much money you have to spend, or how fast you want to go. Then you can build a package that will work together to accomplish your goal.

Well here are my two cents....although the small block chevys are a pretty snappy stock engine I really truely believe that cubes outdisplace everything including technology. First of all a 5.3 tells us that pretty close to a 327 so without boring, stroking, and some serious forced induction I don't think you should be worried. Weight is always something to take into accout but I beleive the camaros with a 327 weigh close to 3400 anyway. I guess one thing to look at too is the obvious a 440 out of a motorhome should make some good torque without doing anything to them. It is true that us Mopar guys really don't have the aftermarket support that the chevy guys do but a lot of us Mopar guys will say we don't need it either. Same goes for resources too. FBBO talking to all of you is enough resources I need anyway. In conclusion I would say he is one thats wrong

I'm afraid I'm going to have to go with the Chevy...you just don't have enough motor with those parts to over come the weight difference.IMHO

What has me worried is based on what I've seen from how his truck performs and what the specs look like on that motor it's not a slouch....

According to Wikipedia: Power output is 285-295 hp (213-220 kW) and torque is 325 lb·ft (441 N·m) to 335 lb·ft (454 N·m). Displacement is 5.3 L (5,328 cc (325.1 cu in)) from 96.01 mm bore and 92.00 mm stroke.

I figure with his cam swap and tune, intake and exhaust stuff he has a tad over what factory output is at but from what I've gathered on my 440 is that being a smog version the output numbers are fairly low compared to the pre-smog versions since it's a 74 built 440..... Does this sound about right?

I don't see what the problem is. Chevies look like shit. I got into Mopars because I like the way they look. I've found that their engineering was great, and they were very fast, too. What is in top fuel now. Only the 426 Hemi is competitive, although in aftermarket version, so what do you want? It looks like you are just throwing parts at a car. Everything needs to work together. You don't want to overbuild anything, so you need to know either how much money you have to spend, or how fast you want to go. Then you can build a package that will work together to accomplish your goal.



We are trying to keep this as fair as possible...meaning we are trying to keep the motors to be as close to a stock as possible.

Then get one of Bob's cams, build the motor to blueprint spec, slap on a six pack, and kick his butt with about 450+ "stock" horsepower

Then get one of Bob's cams, build the motor to blueprint spec, slap on a six pack, and kick his butt with about 450+ "stock" horsepower

Yep, gonna have to agree with Runner on that one:yes:

I know that I am going to catch some grief here, but,,,,,,
You are comparing your apples against his oranges. Is there a limit to the amount of money that you each can spend on your projects? I'm gonna have to say, unless you count in the cost of his EFI powertrain conversion into it, you're gonna get your clock cleaned. On the new GM LS based motors that I have swapped into old iron, it was stupidly simple to build power without spending a bunch of money. Your brother could do a cam, head, intake swap with a computer reprogram for about a grand. It would actually put numbers out close to 500 hp. Plus, his bore to stroke ratio is going to grab rpm faster than your 440. I would point out that my 440 Charger never lost to a 383 Roadrunner, but I got my ass handed to me on the starting line by them and had to drive around them.
All I'm saying is if the cost of his conversion isn't factored in, you're leaving alot on the table.
Good luck.

Well that Chevy motor is probably an LS1 346 (5.7) not a 5.3. They are pretty much cutting edge technology and can make big horsepower. If that is what he running you won’t have a chance to beat him. I know of several LS1 cars putting 550 Rear wheel HP to the ground with a good head and cam package and a mild tune. Most of the LS1 crowd runs the 4speed automatic Trans with steep rear gears. One of my close friends runs low 10s in the 1/4 on street slicks in a 3500lb Camaro. And the car does not 60 foot worth a shit. With a small shot of nitrous he is in the 9:90 range. So you are going to have to put a good deal of more effort into your B-body to beat him. If you can get your hands on some of the available Chrysler printed material where they detail out packages and weights needed to run various times. There is info on engines, trans., suspensions tire size etc that will be helpful. It may still be published in the direct connection catalog. You can get your B-body in the 10s but it’s a lot of work and a more money. The days of thinking a 440 will beat every small block are long gone. Do a little homework on this one before you male the bet. Good luck and keep up posted.

The goal is lowbuck since his motor has 167,000 miles on the clock and this 440 has roughly 50,000 I don't plan on sprucing up the internals anytime soon since I dont think there is much wear and tear it being from a motorhome. I have installed all new gaskets and such but aside from that I dont plan on "building" on my motor as this is supposed to be a lowbuck daily driver type car. He has 4.11's in a 12 bolt posi rear through a automatic tranny and I have unknown rear gearing via a 727.

He has manual brakes, steering, a/c removed, fiberglass hood, etc roughly weighing in at 3300 lbs with driver and some gas in the tank and I have power steering, brakes and a whole lot of car more than him...

I plan on building up this motor once I am more settled and have more funding available for my project. But as for the time being it is what it is as goes with my brothers Camaro hence why we are trying to keep each motor in as original form as possible...due to funding.

With a decent set of heads, 10:1 compression, Bob's cam, a six pack, and 4.10s 12's are still easy to run

I've also done a couple of LS7's (427). Those things are animals with very little work. We just put one of these in a '69 Camaro. It runs 12's and we haven't done any real dialing in yet. That, and the car isn't set up for the quarter. If you have watched Chop Cut Rebuild on Speed, you will know the car.

The goal is lowbuck since his motor has 167,000 miles on the clock and this 440 has roughly 50,000 I don't plan on sprucing up the internals anytime soon since I dont think there is much wear and tear it being from a motorhome. I have installed all new gaskets and such but aside from that I dont plan on "building" on my motor as this is supposed to be a lowbuck daily driver type car. He has 4.11's in a 12 bolt posi rear through a automatic tranny and I have unknown rear gearing via a 727.

He has manual brakes, steering, a/c removed, fiberglass hood, etc roughly weighing in at 3300 lbs with driver and some gas in the tank and I have power steering, brakes and a whole lot of car more than him...

I plan on building up this motor once I am more settled and have more funding available for my project. But as for the time being it is what it is as goes with my brothers Camaro hence why we are trying to keep each motor in as original form as possible...due to funding.

I would say that unless you can put a better than stock cam in there to go with the carb and intake you put on there, he is still going to take you with his set up... unless he has crappy compression due to such high mileage on his engine (167K seems pretty high). Also, the performer RPM is the single plane intake right? (I forget) I think that the single plane intake, plus the 750 carb and the ported heads is all going to hurt you off the line with such a heavy automatic car and no cam to match it. It all raises your power band when you need more power lower in your RPM with a heavy automatic car. Can you at least throw a high stall converter in there so you don't just start off at a limp. Then maybe you could take him... :sSig_goodluck:

With a decent set of heads, 10:1 compression, Bob's cam, a six pack, and 4.10s 12's are still easy to run

Bingo! What your motor home motor is lacking is compression and that's a major drawback. The advantage of the late model stuff is they produce more torque in the RPM range that matters most. Look at those curly intake manifolds. Can you say tuned ram induction? Now add port fuel injection and can you say perfect fuel distribution? But you build the right 440 and put in the proper drive train and he could be easily looking at the rear end of a MoPar.

its all about how much money you guys have to put into your motors. you can build and build and the $$$$ signs just keep adding up. you can build that 440 to kick some ass but he is ahead of you in technology. hell a good ignition is gonna cost around 500 bucks.

I ran a Prestolite in my Challenger and it ran perfect. Didn't skip a beat. Or, for under $200 you can get a MSD 6A and a parts store rebuilt Mopar electronic distributor and recurve it. Or just run a Standard Ignition brand LX-101

I've always run either a Prestolite or Mallory dual point I found at a swap meet for about $20.00. Later I upgraded to the factory electronic dist and an MSD 6A, which was also a swap meet item.

Well here are my two cents....although the small block chevys are a pretty snappy stock engine I really truely believe that cubes outdisplace everything including technology. First of all a 5.3 tells us that pretty close to a 327 so without boring, stroking, and some serious forced induction I don't think you should be worried. Weight is always something to take into accout but I beleive the camaros with a 327 weigh close to 3400 anyway. I guess one thing to look at too is the obvious a 440 out of a motorhome should make some good torque without doing anything to them. It is true that us Mopar guys really don't have the aftermarket support that the chevy guys do but a lot of us Mopar guys will say we don't need it either. Same goes for resources too. FBBO talking to all of you is enough resources I need anyway. In conclusion I would say he is one thats wrong
Fact, I've owned sense new a 69 R/T SE 440/4speed Charger and my 2007 5.7 Charger R/T out runs it by a full 1.5 seconds. On the other hand my 73 one owner Charger SE 318/391 stroker, 904 Boss Hogg 2500 converter and 3:91 gears out runs the 07. His 440 came out of a motor home that means he's still running 8:5 to 1 compression. With that in mind the Chevy will clean his clock. With what he has now all he needs is 10 to 1` pistons, Edlebrock heads pocket ported, comp 270H cam kit, 750 holly double pumper and tti headers to get 500 hp out of his 440. Then a stall converter and shift kit going back to 3:91 gears with a sure grip. Its like the one guy said you have to build the whole package to go fast.

Fact, I've owned sense new a 69 R/T SE 440/4speed Charger and my 2007 5.7 Charger R/T out runs it by a full 1.5 seconds. On the other hand my 73 one owner Charger SE 318/391 stroker, 904 Boss Hogg 2500 converter and 3:91 gears out runs the 07. His 440 came out of a motor home that means he's still running 8:5 to 1 compression. With that in mind the Chevy will clean his clock. With what he has now all he needs is 10 to 1` pistons, Edlebrock heads pocket ported, comp 270H cam kit, 750 holly double pumper and tti headers to get 500 hp out of his 440. Then a stall converter and shift kit going back to 3:91 gears with a sure grip. Its like the one guy said you have to build the whole package to go fast.


And that was the ADVERTISED compression by Mopar that was notoriously HIGH compared to what they really were when checked. The pistons are always way down in the hole. You are going to have you hands full unless you bring the compression to what the 440 magnum was SUPPOSED to be and the recommended cam and some carb work. A 6 pack is nice and was available stock, but you can do better with an aftermarket single 4 barrel for less money.

A 6 pack is nice and was available stock, but you can do better with an aftermarket single 4 barrel for less money.

Not to mention the single 4 will be way easier to dial in. (For us common folk)

Still haven't heard, does bro get to throw the same amount of money at his motor that you do?

You may want to think about a good plate Nitrous system. but with the addition of a system you have to make sure the rest of the fuel system is up to handling the addition gas flow/supply. This is assuming the rest of the engine is fresh. A 150 shot will wake your 440 up a bit. And always use good Race gas if your spraying the car. There is a lot more too it, but you can find a lot of good published information that will be helpful.

I would add big tube headers,stall converter,391 or 410 gear,and a good ignition system.This added to what you have already done to the 440 will really wake the 440 up.

A few years ago I bought a roll bar for my Bee from a guy that took it out of his 1969 six pack Bee. He told me that one of the most noticable things he did to his car when racing it was to change the 5/16" fuel lines to the 3/8s" lines. You can add cam, carb, intake, do head work etc. but it is all for naught if you don't have enough fuel supply to feed it. I have both 1/2" supply and return lines on my Hemi car. This is a very common oversight by guys that are not really racers and are just entering this arena as they just start throwing parts at it based on recommendations from others.

It sounds like you are looking to keep your car close to stock, streetable, and don't want to spend endless dollars. I would think in fairness you and your brother should set some rules. Maybe a dollar amount cap on what each of you are allowed to spend. Then it is up to each of you as to how wisely you spend your money.

In nearly ALL cases the best bang for your buck before you do anything else would be headers and fuel lines. Then carb & manifold, but that choice will be determined by what internal mods you may dicide on. From there you have to determine what you can live with regarding streetability.

I have experience with both. Don't let the 167k miles on the GM fool you. That really isn't that bad with modern fuel injected engines. They don't get anywhere near the cylinder washdown carb engines do. If he has reasonable ring seal left, you might be in trouble. Cammed and tuned LS motors are incredible. Don't forget that the main contributor to the LS cylinder head development was Tony Mamo. If you haven't heard of him, he is head of R@D at Air Flow Research.
You can see what I am driving, so believe me, I am pulling for you. I would focus on top end pull because otherwise you will have all you can do to hook up on the starting line. Don't underestimate the LS, you will have all you can do to poke ahead of him at the end of the run.


Just my 2 cents

This won't help you with your competition, but maybe it will help you not worry about it. This guy at work has a '31 Ford roadster he inherited. Flat black, red wheels, pie crusts, no fenders or hood, and a Flathead V8. The block cracked, and he spent $4000 on a new motor. Would the car be faster for less money if he put in a 350? Sure, but that's not the point.

The LS out of the truck is not the LS1 it is the 5.3 A buddy of mine has an LS1 GTO and has been telling me that his LS crowd has been taking those 5.3's with minor mods and running mid 10's so don't sleep on those engines. I hate to say it but the chevy would most likely win but there is only one way to find out.Run whatcha Brung!

Nope, if that motor came out of a truck, I believe they use a LQ designator. But, it essentially a LS motor with an iron block. There is a lot of buzz about using heads off of an Escalade (LQ9?) and upping compression and performance.

Since compression is low, put a huffer on it. I don't know alot about doing this, so do some research and find out what you can. Our 01 Tahoe does shit and get, but a 440 with a huffer on it should do the trick and take home the prize.

LOL, put a Magnuson Supercharger on that Tahoe, you could probably give that 440 fits....

A few guys in WNY are using the Pro charger setup with an intercooler here in W.N.Y. and making a lot of power on the LS1 / LSX engines. So much I would not even post it here, because if you have not seen the numbers you would think it was possible.

Thats the family car, so no messing around with it, although.....

Oh no, we aren't talking about messing with it.
We are merely suggesting ways to improve the efficiency of the family wagon for economy and safety.....

I agree with a previous post as your old 440 is apples to his oranges. With that being said, the 5.7 Gen3 Hemi with the same mods would be more appropriate. If you need that house payment, send his happy ass down here and he can run my stroker smallblock 68 Cuda with change to spare.:yes:

Asssuming the rules for your "match race" is stock parts, no INTERNAL mods, or power adders, you MIGHT have a chance. If it were me, I'd lighten your Mopar up as much as possible (DON'T tell him!) and try to get as much torque out of it as you can. Don't try to out RPM him as you simply ain't gonna do it. I've raced Chevys for years and in the last couple of years switched over to Mopar & am amazed how many guys think they can out-rev a SBC---- you ain't gonna do it, especially with a big Mopar! You need bout 550-600hp around 6500RPM or so to make this a winnable race (IMO) and I really don't think you're gonna do that with bolt-ons

Just because you can "Rev it til it Rains" don't mean you're still making any kind of power at those levels either. The good thing about Chevy guys is they are almost ALWAYS over-confident that their Camaro or Firebird from the local trailer park is invencible. That is what's fun about handing their @$$ to them.:yes:

Just because you can "Rev it til it Rains" don't mean you're still making any kind of power at those levels either. The good thing about Chevy guys is they are almost ALWAYS over-confident that their Camaro or Firebird from the local trailer park is invencible. That is what's fun about handing their @$$ to them.:yes:

Agreed.

Hi guys im new and i was reading through this... is there anything in your bet that says you cant have forced induction? cheep power = turbocharger... just a possibility

What do I know, but he we go.
What if you:
get some big valves
porting
cut the heads down to up compression
maybe switch in some old HP magnum pistons
soild cam
RPM intake
750 DP
3k stall
4.10
headers/duals/x pipe
valve body in the trans
SS springs/ drag slicks
race front shocks,longer rear shocks
3/8" fuel lines/ HV fuel pump?
Lighten up the car
no heater/no spare/radio/lighter
wheels/glass hood/bumpers/
diet
Good luck, sounds fun. But you have to take every advantage.

Just because you can "Rev it til it Rains" don't mean you're still making any kind of power at those levels either. The good thing about Chevy guys is they are almost ALWAYS over-confident that their Camaro or Firebird from the local trailer park is invencible. That is what's fun about handing their @$$ to them.:yes:

Woah woah woah. I'm all for hating on Chevy's, but the first generation Firebirds had Pontiac powerplants in them. Don't drag a Firebird into a Chevy/Mopar fight. and the Pontiac owners had more class then to live in a trailer park :grin:

Woah woah woah. I'm all for hating on Chevy's, but the first generation Firebirds had Pontiac powerplants in them. Don't drag a Firebird into a Chevy/Mopar fight. and the Pontiac owners had more class then to live in a trailer park :grin:

Oh Speedy, I am sure he wasn't refering to your pre-fab in the mobile home community......:rolling:

Oh Speedy, I am sure he wasn't refering to your pre-fab in the mobile home community......:rolling:

It's still a sensitive point for me :tongueflap:

im surprised nobodys talked about traction ive seen tires make a world of a difference in a drag

Exactly, Morbid. I was thinking the same thing. You could have a 528 Hemi, but if you're running bias ply or even standard street tires, you don't have a chance. Instead of worrying about your motor, you should be tricking out your suspension and tires.