Running lights no longer running...

[FridayGt]

Ok, so, I'm kind of stumped and was wondering if anyone could give me some things to look for or try.

When I pull the lights knob on the dash out to the first selector, I no longer get anything. It used to light up my dash and my side lights/ running lights/ tail lights. Now, nothing. It happened while I was in the vehicle driving at night time the other day, the interior lights just went out (maybe hit a bump?). Now, if I pull the knob all the way out to the 2nd position, the headlights will come on. The break lights also work when I depress the break pedal. I tested all of the fuses and they're all working. I even pulled the woodgrain around guages/ knobs out, the wiper selector out, the a/c heat controls out, and the light selector unit out (took me forever to figure out how to get that knob to release... lol. I checked to ensure that all of the plugs were secured and that there was no visible issues just standing out, but found nothing.

I've tried searching the forum for advice on the issue and what threads I found either confused me or didn't specifically address my issue... sigh. lol. Right now, I'm not trying to completely replace the wiring harness. The previous owner had this thing wired up like a big pile of spaghetti hanging down in front of the pedals... I'd rather wait until the winter when it gets put up and to give myself a little time to recover after just buying it less than a month ago and already replacing the trans, front suspension, rear suspension and a host of other things. Has something like this ever happened to you? What do you suggest I try?

 

[FridayGt]

Anyone have any thoughts on this?

 

[72RoadrunnerGTX]

I’ll take a stab at this; don’t have access to my reference materials at this moment so I can’t speak details. The headlight switch is supplied with power from two separate sources, one for the headlamps and one for the running and dash lights. IIRC there is a pink wire at the headlamp switch getting power from the back of the cigar lighter piggybacked with a red wire coming from the fuse box and a fuse labeled “Cigar”. Get a test light or volt/ohm meter and verify constant voltage is present on both sides of the fuse. Fuses of that type can open up internally with no visible break over time. If power is present on both sides, go to the cigar lighter and verify voltage is there, if not check the female bullet connector on the back of it. Be sure both wires have not been separated somehow. There was another guy not too long ago with this same problem after he had a stereo installed found this connector cut-off to be used to power the radio and not reconnecting the pink headlight switch 2nd power source. If all of that checks out, you will have to get to the back of the headlight switch and check for voltage on the pink wire there. If so, that leaves the switch itself as the problem.

 

[FridayGt]

I’ll take a stab at this; don’t have access to my reference materials at this moment so I can’t speak details. The headlight switch is supplied with power from two separate sources, one for the headlamps and one for the running and dash lights. IIRC there is a pink wire at the headlamp switch getting power from the back of the cigar lighter piggybacked with a red wire coming from the fuse box and a fuse labeled “Cigar”. Get a test light or volt/ohm meter and verify constant voltage is present on both sides of the fuse. Fuses of that type can open up internally with no visible break over time. If power is present on both sides, go to the cigar lighter and verify voltage is there, if not check the female bullet connector on the back of it. Be sure both wires have not been separated somehow. There was another guy not too long ago with this same problem after he had a stereo installed found this connector cut-off to be used to power the radio and not reconnecting the pink headlight switch 2nd power source. If all of that checks out, you will have to get to the back of the headlight switch and check for voltage on the pink wire there. If so, that leaves the switch itself as the problem.

Thanks man, I really appreciate the effort. I took some pictures of an ominous pink wire that is conveniently disconnected to see what you think. I originally disregarded this loose wire as when I accidently tapped grounded metal with it, the dome light flickered. I had planned on using it to install a switch under the dash to turn on the dome light instead of wiring it back up to the switch in the door.

First, this is the rats nest that resides safely in front of my pedals. I am hesitant to trust that any color truly matches what it is supposed to be. I also have zero faith that this car is even remotely wired completely right. There were a lot of wiring issues that I fixed when I first got it, but this wasn't one of them and is the only thing holding me back from passing inspection right now. (Well, emissions to, but just barely and there is a fix in sight for that).

Now, I put my test light up to this wire. It is hot, and by hot I mean it blew the bulb in my test light... damn it... lol. However, as you'll see, it is spliced to a green wire. Don't worry, that electrical tape will be going away and this will be crimped into a connector shortly. Sigh, bit by bit. lol

On a positive note, this green wire that it is connected too does trace back to just under the dash directly below the cigar lighter.

Do you possibly have a picture, or know of where I can find one that displays where on the dash light switch this is connected? The oddly shaped plug is firmly seated in it and if I can figure out were to connect this I can get moving on it. Thank you again SOOOO much for the help! I really hope this works!

 

[72RoadrunnerGTX]

The pink wire in question is smaller than what you have pictured and shouldn't be routed anywhere near the lower part of the dash. It is taped into the harness up behind the cluster. Here are some pictures of a harness I recently rebuilt/converted to support a Rallye cluster. The fuse I mentioned is not labeled as "Cigar" but as "Misc", start there make sure power on both sides of that fuse. A red wire runs from the fuse box in the harness to the cigar lighter and is molded with the pink smaller gauge wire. From there it runs over to the headlight switch behind the cluster in the harness.
With all the extra wires appearing to come from behind the ash tray, if the fuse is good and the pink wire at the switch is dead, I would pull the ash try out and see what's going on with cig lighter wiring.
There are locking tabs on the headlight switch connector that need to be released before the connector comes of the switch.

 

[72RoadrunnerGTX]

I just noticed that the flasher unit pictured hanging down below the steering column appears to have a red and black wires attached. That identifies it as the turn signal flasher, not the 4-way flasher that would be mounted in that area. The turn signal flasher would normally be clipped behind the ash-tray very close to where the cigar lighter connector would be. As a matter of fact the cigar lighter wires were originally taped in the harness within an inch or two of the flasher connector wires. Would lead me to believe that part of the harness has been pulled down below the column into that mess hanging there. Look close by those black and red flasher wires for the small gauge pink wire/red wire right angled bullet connector.

 

[FridayGt]

Oh my god, man you are awesome! Whether this works our not, I can't begin to tell you how I appreciate all of this effort you've gone through. As soon as my lady falls asleep, I'm back all over those wires again. I'll take this thread with me for notes and let you know what I come up with. This time I'll be sure to unplug the battery...lol

 

[FridayGt]

ok, I'm digging through there now, and man, your eyes are epic. That was the turn signal flasher. You Sir have earned the "Where's Waldo Award" of the day! lol

So, I continue to look, and what do I find right where your arrow was pointing? The cigar elbow plug. Freaking epic man. Thank you. I appreciate this so much more than someone just doing the work for me. You've done better than that and have helped me to start learning!!! I'm going to start testing wires and dismantling for better access to see if I can get this figured out. I'm going to take pictures as I go and post them up at the end of the night so that everyone here can see where I'm at and what results have been yielded.

 

[72RoadrunnerGTX]

 

[FridayGt]

Ok, well, here's the plug on the top of the dimmer switch.

Here is that lovely cigar plug you refered to just hanging out all loosey goosey like.

Connection was good from the unplugged cigar lighter connection the the wire on the headlight dimmer switch. Could this being unplugged have anything to do with it other than the cigar lighter not working?

The connection was good from the pink wire through to the other side of the dimmer wheel when clicked alll the way over.

But, then I saw this and my heart about sank. I often wondered why this guy had a fire extinguisher mounted in the car when he had an open rear diff, jacked up tranny and a REALLY tired 440. I mean, who would run the car at the track like that? Well, I imagine this is why...

I suppose, most importantly, for the question at hand that this is more than likely where my issue lies. The fuse that is in place is good and carries a connection all the way through both clasps holding it in. But, I'm not certain where to check in the engine compartment to see if the power is even getting through the clasp to make it's way eventually to the headlight switch in the dash.

Here is a shot of the back of the fuse panel in the engine compartment. There are two spots that I was uncertain about. It appears as though there is an unattached plug to the left of the picture and what could be an ungrounded wire to the right. Do you have any thoughts on this? Idea of where to check back here to see if the connection goes all the way through to the dimmer switch? If it does go all the way through, ideas on the next step? Thanks again!!!

 

[72RoadrunnerGTX]

IMO, at this point you need a voltmeter, really need to determine where the voltage drop is occurring. The burn/heat damage is the likely spot, that is the load end of that fuse. That fuse and the two above it get their power from a red 12gauge wire that runs up the harness inside on the of firewall to a "welded splice", taped up in the harness, then directly to the back of the amp meter. You indicated that the brake lights are functional and that's the fuse directly above, that tells me the feed voltage to the fuse box for that bus is intact. Checked the fuse itself for continuity? Have you tried temporarily jumping the fuse holder? The load side clip does appear pretty heat damaged, I would try pulling the fuse out and cleaning up the inner surface with some sand paper for better contact to the fuse end. The permanent fix is a new or used/in better shape harness/fuse box.
No, It won't matter if the cigar lighter is connected or not for what you are trying to do as long as the connector itself is intact.

Can't tell where that wire comes from on the engine compartment side of the bulkhead connector. Can you post another angle and verify the color code?

 

[FridayGt]

Awesome man! I'll run out and pick up a voltmeter over lunch today and dig up some sand paper. Any thoughts on a voltage range that I should be looking for?

I do have breaklights, just not the tail lights that run when the selector knob is pulled out to it's first point. Basically, when this happened a few days ago, I had, but lost tail lights, side markers, running lights and dash lights. The tails light up only when the brake pedal is depressed and the running lights only light up when a turn signal or hazard is active. The dash never lights up.

When I'm in there working on it tonight, I'll try to light up the engine bay a little better and get a better picture. I am by no means an electrician and I'm new to working on these cars so my first instinct when seeing things unplugged or ungrounded is to quickly place them somewhere... lol.

 

[72RoadrunnerGTX]

You are looking for a "voltage drop", a point or points where the electrical resistance is high enough to restrict or stop electrical current flow. BTW, some resistance and some current flow generates heat. The burn damage present on the load side(outboard in this case)of the fuse that protects the circuit in question is the obvious starting point. Start by removing the fuse and sanding off the oxidation build up on the inner surface of the fuse clips. Bend the clips if necessary to restore clipping spring tension. It appears that the fuse pictured is of the wrong type, longer that it should be. I would try to locate the correct length fuse for better fuse cap to clip contact. I would be sure to disconnect the battery while working with the fuse holder, there is serious damage potential should a short to ground occur. Should you not be able to fix the fuse holder, as mentioned you will need to bypass it with an in-line fuse holder. If the lights are still not working proceed with gathering voltage info.
A fully charged battery , engine off, will be 12.6 volts(battery voltage), verify at the battery. There should be little deviation from that at all points out to the running light bulbs themselves on a normally operating system. I would start at the fuse holder feed side(inner side), should be battery voltage present there and at both ends of the fuse, be sure to take readings off the clips not the fuse caps. If that looks good, pull the headlight switch out to the first position and take a measurement at the load side of the switch, the terminal with two smaller wires, one black and one black with yellow trace. Should you find battery voltage there and the lights still don't work, the problem is elsewhere on the load side. Now work your way back starting with the pink wire at the switch, then at the cigar lighter connector until you find where the current has stopped.

 

[FridayGt]

Ok, well, I think I found the problem area. Just like you thought, I think it was that clip. The clip itself seems to be fine, but it’s not carrying the connection, so possibly the wire before it. I checked the voltage at the pink wire going into the light panel dimmer switch and got nothing. I then checked the voltage at the cigar lighter plug and got nothing. When I checked at the suspect clip, I got mostly nothing. I would start to get little spurts if I wiggled it around just right, but that's it and I'm not even very certain of that. I was pulling a cortortionist act trying to get to it. But, when I tested the Bus Spade I had juice.
I tested the continuity from clip to clip after removing that long fuse (I have a proper one waiting) and got nothing. I then temporarily bridged from the bus spade to the suspect clip and got continuity from clip to clip.
So, today over lunch I’m going to go pick up an in-line fuse holder (I should have gotten it yesterday when I got the volt meter) and bridge the gap. Hopefully I can get an in-line fuse holder with long enough wires at the radio shack to still make the fuse accessible.
Before I start that though, I’m going to try to get a better picture of the loose wire as the back of the fuse panel on the other side of the firewall in the engine bay. I really think that one wire to the right is a ground for something, but I have no idea about that clip and I have a bunch of clips hanging loose under the steering column from that harness. I’m just a bit hesitant to start the car up without identifying those wires first.

On a side note, how do you suggest I connect the in-line fuse holder to the buss spade? Solder?

On another side not, isn't it awesome to see how it looks as thought the previous owner sprayed the engine the blue it was supposed to be while it was in the engine compartment by the overspray on the wiring? lol.

 

[FridayGt]

Here are the best pictures I could get with what I've g They're camera pictures, but they came out better than my digital. As best I can tell, the plug is completely black, both wires. The wire with the metal connector on the end appears to be black with a single white stripe.

 

[72RoadrunnerGTX]

With the fuse removed, you should not have continuity from clip to clip, that is the purpose of an intact fuse, through the fuse end caps. You didn’t mention cleaning up the inside surfaces of the clips that contact the fuse ends. Enough oxidation build up can be a pretty good insulator, sand it bare where it contacts the fuse end caps. If you end up installing an in-line fuse holder, connect it to the male bus spade at the rear in the fuse box with a crimp-on female spade conntector. To get at the back, there are two metal clips holding the fuse panel to the bulkhead connector.
The wire on the engine compartment side of the bulkhead connector is not related to the light circuit. I noticed a dash mounted reverse light and a single pedal (brake) on your car, that gives conflicting indications as to what trans the car came with. Did it come as a manual or auto? The wire may be the reverse indicator light lead, we can get back to that later. See if you can get a shot of where the black with white stripe comes from.

 

[FridayGt]

Sorry, yes, I sanded to what appeared to be bare metal again. And still had no connection up to the switch.

I put the inline fuse in exactly as mentioned. Everything is in tight, snug, and perfect. I plugged the battery back up and all of a sudden..... I had my lights back!!!

Well, I got brave and started the car up and she would only stay running while the key was turned over, but wouldn't continue on her own. Do you think one of those loose wires could have had anything to do with the ignition system? Here are the pictures;

The plug goes up into that conduit there and around the engine bay towards the passenger side of the block. Thoughts?

Oh, I have an automatic transmission and I do have the reverse light under the dash.

 

[72RoadrunnerGTX]

Need a shot of the other wire with the male spade, where it is originating from. Neither of those leads involves the lights or running circuits. Engine running only in cranking position only is usually a ballast resistor; get some voltage readings at the 4 connection there with key in ignition run position for now. Should have battery voltage on the dark blue wires and something a bit less on the brown & green /red wires.

 

[FridayGt]

I'll try to get a better pic in the morning of it. It got a bit dark out. Maybe the engine was just cold so it wasn't wanting to work for me, because it's working now! That wire with the male connector on it is coming out of the back of the fuse panel. It is the continuation of a wire that connects into the fuse panel. Basically, the line bounces in and then out of the fuse panel making a connection.

 

[72RoadrunnerGTX]

Found the black with white stripe wire. That car has a 4-speed reverse light harness in it. I would tape up the exposed connector and forget about it. It was originally connected to the dash mounted reverse light, should have a single wire coming into the engine department through a rubber grommet from the light. Appears it was an original 4-speed car. The other double black wire female I can't find in the diagrams, would need to know what cavity of the bulkhead connector it originates to identify the circuit.