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Had alternator hand rewound

Darthomas

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Used local shop to rewind a stator.
I think he paralleled two 18 gauge wires in each leg of the wye, and made each pole grouping have 15 turns.
Should really honk at idle.
Maybe tomorrow morning.
This should decrease field current quite a bit, and decrease VR point wear and sticking as much less field current should be called for to provide same output.
I will report how it acts, and he agrees to wind these by hand for anyone who might care.
Let me tell you how it works before I tell you what it cost.
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I recall being VERY pleased with the idle speed output of the one I put in the 65 Dart GT over 10 years ago...
That car will come back one day.
 
DT, I am very interested in how your alternator performs once you have a chance to test it for a while. However, I'm also very leery of what it cost you to have this done. Let us know what your analysis turns up. Thanks!
 
After one day of testing, I am very pleased. I am not overjoyed.
The reduced field current has stopped the contacts in the mechanical voltage regulator from having a tendency to stick together, and I no longer have the flaring light syndrome, even with the same old regulator that seemed "prone" to sticking.
Idle at 700 rpm in park, supports headlights, fan full speed, and brake lights without going into D range.
I think it could be even stronger with the field portion of the alternator I took off, as there are different field windings.
Plus that alt has a smaller pulley for higher RPM, maybe tomorrow I will swap fronts-n-backs.
Compare to old alternator stator wires, only 9 or 10 per loop.
Mix-matched alternator DPCD front and squareback put together during a period of financial duress.
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FYI, over 30 years in electronics and I am not seeing how this helps the regulator. The current in the individual legs is less (by half if you used two wires) but the total current adds up and remains unchanged (at the regulator).
Am I missing something here?
 
Badvert65, I too have some experience behind me in electronics, probably more behind than ahead now! Anyway I believe this is pretty much a simple turns ratio thing. Pass a wire thru a magnetic field and a voltage/current is induced into the wire. What Darthomas is doing is increasing the number of turns in the stator, thus effectively reducing the number of turns required in the field winding to produce the equivalent voltage/current output. Although he hasn't really "decreased" the number of turns in the field winding, the amount of current supplied to the field can/will now be "less" for the same output as before, therefore the regulator contacts will see "less" arcing due to the lower current requirement. Hope it makes sense, maybe totally wrong here but that is the way I see the circuit working.
 
Why not go to an electronic regulator? And I say this with zero electronics experience behind me.
 
Mopars and Missles has it exactly.
The alternator is now working just as "hard" to fill the need, but does it with less field current.

I am an electronics engineer.
I LIKE mechanical voltage regulators and point ignition.
I really wanted to see if the "bad" voltage regulator would behave correctly if an alternator made the "old" way were used.

The regulator is not sticking anymore.
I do wish the wire had been green.
 
Been keeping the cover off the v reg recently as needed to unstick contacts or polish with crocus cloth.
I have resisted doing this since changing the alt and it has not needed it!
It just keeps getting steadier and looking more like a new car, by the ammeter operation.

Haven't yet compared field windings on the two fronts but the other one has a smaller pulley.
I know my car had the larger pulley when I got it in 77. Should I go non-original and use the smaller pulley? It's something you can see...
The more drive it the happier it acts.
 
Also interested in cost.

We used to have a "hermetic motor re-winder" position on the books.

It was the highest paid union position we ever had- more than a lot of management.
 
What is the cost and does he do a complete rebuild? I have and original one off of my 62 that is in pieces in a box.
 
I put the correct 1965 date code "front" with the smaller pulley onto the 1965 back I had rewound. Even more stable and better output, plus I have proper late 65 code alt OK for my may-june build 66 car.

Cost was $250, and I'd do it again in a heartbeat, because I really like seeing the ammeter behave as they did when the car
was new.
He didn't have the tool to pull the front pulkey, but if he had serious interest from mopar headss in this service, he might get the hub clamp.
I'm really happy at this point.
I have also installed a size 27 battery, so I'm sittin fat electrically now.
 
Also interested in cost.

We used to have a "hermetic motor re-winder" position on the books.

It was the highest paid union position we ever had- more than a lot of management.
Yeah, there's only one way, the right way, and it costs real $ to have someone who
understands wht it all has to be perfect or it won't work at all.

Hermetic motors are welded shut.
Its gotta be right.
 
I'm sorry, fellas, but I really can't keep quiet about this any more. It's one thing for one person to chase or believe a harebrained idea—that's one person's choice. I've spent money on home-hatched ideas knowing fully well the point of the exercise wasn't to make a better mousetrap (or alternator, starter, carburetor, whatever) but to do something differently. But now we've got people saying "Hey, sign me up", and some better information needs to be out there before more people go setting $250 on fire like this.

Darthomas, it's great that you have an alternator that behaves well, but you're not seeing what you think you're seeing. You've been sold a bill of goods by the guy you paid.

Your regulator points werent' sticking because your previous alternator wasn't hand-wound in an imaginary new way. You seem to know this; you said yourself: I really like seeing the ammeter behave as they did when the car
was new
.
When your car was new, it didn't have a special artisanally hand-wound $250 alternator on it. There are a couple of (real) reasons why your regulator points kept sticking with your previous alternator: The regulator was faulty by age or specification, or there was a short or other fault in the alternator's field circuit that was drawing excessive current, which was zap-welding the regulator points together. Your present replacement alternator has no such fault—that's all. You could've achieved that same fix (stop the regulator points sticking together) by installing any non-faulty alternator with an appropriately-matched regulator.

The mostly-imaginary change in how the stator is wound has not done anything like what you think it has; it has not created a situation where "much less field current should be called for to provide same output". That statement illustrates a pretty complete lack of comprehension of how the alternator works. This claim is much like saying “Ha! Guess what! I just halved the amount of work it takes to climb the staircase: now I climb ‘em two at a time!”.

In reality this is nothing but an unnecessarily long and expensive way to fix a very simple, basic problem. I would say shame on the guy you paid to do the work for not speaking up, but he didn't even have the proper tools to service a Chrysler alternator (pulley puller), so I don't suppose it's reasonable to expect much out of him.

I ran this thread by an old friend of mine with years of experience engineering, specifying, and bulding automotive rotating electrics (alternators and starters). His response:
"That thread makes my head hurt. There is quite literally no benefit to what he's done. The best of the bunch—the Denso hairpin alternators—have extremely good low- and high-RPM output not by increasing the winding density as this guy thinks he's done, but by increasing the number of magnetic poles the rotor intersects during its rotation."

Back to the practical matter at hand: You have an alternator that works well for you. Very good. That's fully achievable—yes, even the adequate output at idle—without pointless and expensive custom stator hand-winding. All it takes is an alternator with an appropriately selected and matched rotor and stator, driven by a pulley appropriately selected for the application, controlled by an appropriately specified and selected regulator, and with the whole charging system's wires, connections, and grounds all in good condition. With nothing more than those conditions met, I've lost count of how many works-but-poorly old Mopar charging systems I've made work well over the years (good idle output, steady charging voltage, etc).

Look in any year's factory parts cattledog and you'll see a whole whackload of different alternators: different amperage ratings, different pulley sizes, different applications. Then look in the parts breakdown for all those alternators and you'll see a bunch of different stators and rotors. That's what it looks like when the factory did exactly as I described: match the stator and rotor and pulley to the desired output characteristics and application.

(That is not to say the original alternator for any given car is necessarily the best one; f you study up on the differences in the Chrysler roundback & squareback alternators made between 1960 and 1988, you can find or build an alternator that looks original (or very close to original) on an old Mopar and puts out a lot more current than the original, including better low-RPM output. All without $250 worth of hand-wound imaginary "improvement"!)

Fact is, most of the shortcomings of Chrysler alternators aren't so much inherent to the breed as they are a result of thrown-together (mismatched) parts in "remanufactured" alternators. The "remanufacturing" outfits just throw all the rotors and stators in a bin and throw together whichever ones come to hand. Result: alternators with lousy low-RPM output. Alternators with flickery output. Alternators that draw marginally too much field current and cook regulators.

(Similar messes are made with the "high output conversion kits" that have been sold for years. Yes, you might get higher current output at high RPM, but your low-RPM output will suffer badly because the stator and rotor are no longer matched to the actual RPM range the alternator is to be used at.)

From the reman place's perspective, this is a "Who cares?" situation: nobody buys alternators for old Mopars any more, they sell for $45, and there's a lifetime warranty on 'em, so when it fails or someone who cares in more detail than "Does it charge?" doesn't like how it works, they bring it back to the parts store and get another one. Eventually they either get one they decide they can live with, or they give up.

As for an electronics engineer who prefers points-type ignition and points-type voltage regulators: everyone's entitled to their own opinion, but points-type regulators and ignitions are not better. They just plain aren't. The industry moved to electronics because they work better.
 
It's good to hear from you Dan! Am I wrong or have you been gone for awhile
 
I'm tryin' to quit, but they don't offer arm patches and hypnosis and stuff for this addiction
:lol:
 
BTW, since I failed to answer the obvious followup questions: Old Car Parts Northwest has a large quantity of a wide variety of NOS Chrysler alternators—actual, real ones, not "remanufactured" junk or "100% New!" knockoff garbage from China—at highly reasonable prices. Most of them are dual-field types from '72-'88; those can be used with the '69-down circuit by just grounding either of the two field terminals on the new alternator. Or if you want to keep the original appearance, you can swap the rotor and stator and bearings and whatnot from the NOS alternator into your original housing. OCPNW also has a pretty good stash of Mopar regulators and other such goodies.

Do note that a higher-draw rotor was phased in in the late '70s to boost low-RPM charging output; if you put one of these on an earlier car you need a regulator that'll handle the higher current. Regulators were upgraded at the same time; if you're working on a '70 or later car with dual-field alternator control circuit, and you're buying from OCPNW, specify a regulator with a part number that starts with "4" and you'll be fine. If you have an earlier car and you want to keep a points-type regulator for whatever reason, that'll be the 2444980 (Standard VR-106, Echlin VR-34 or VR-35). If you want electronic without converting to the later-style control circuit, there are many options, I like Standard VR-128/Echlin VR-1001. OCPNW usually has at least several of these options in stock, too.

If you're upgrading your alternator to a substantially higher-output item than original, you really need to upgrade your charging circuit. There are many ways to do this—how to proceed depends on how plain or fancy a result you want to wind up with and how much money/time is in the budget for the project.
 
Actually the wiring upgrade even is a great advice, will depends on the load demand by the car even getting a bigger alt capacity. Of course is way better, specially and AT LEAST, the Black side up to ammeter. Red one could it be obvioussed in some cases.

IN FACT More than the wire itself is the terminals at bulkhead really what gets burnt. The wire by itself could hold the extra load if the weakness of the packard terminals weren't the REAL weak spot.

What is truth is the good alt capacity will save you from the tipical burnt at bulkhead then the ammeter, saving the extra load going throught when batt is required to feed what the alt is not, then the recharge process givving gas.

Smaller pulley push a bit on the good side of the alt capacity iddling.

I wrotte this loooong time ago and personally tested. I'd like myself to get a correct dated alt stator rewound instead a later alt which is a bit wider and harder to fit, but don't trust locally on who could make it like it should, and can't afford that being done on the States.

http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/topic,33574.0/all.html

I differ about the stock alt capacity even being new from assembly plant, since the bigger ones were mostly rated like 45 amps as max load capacity, and my car demands that when I turn on the A/C driving at night, something than was never sourced leaving the dealer back in the years. I shouldn't need to give gas just to increase the alt load, but at iddle. Based on stock specs ( dealership databooks ) alt barelly could feed 30 amps iddling. Way far from the car load demand if you are driving at night, and begins to rain, for example.

Then the next mistake were made by owners, feeding incorrectly from batt any acc or upgrades... And go on ( bigger capacities batts keeping stock alt etc... )

So is a mix of mistakes made between Chrysler engineers and owners... But the fail from assembly line got to owners to make the next bigger mistakes.
 
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