E 85 fuel in a High Compression Engine

[Moparmatt72]

Nothing against e85 but if more power is what your after why not look into meth/water injection Ald to refill just go to you local auto parts and get windshield wiper fluid same thing. It turns 91 octane into like 116 octane. The only down side is if you tune the car to it make sure you keep an eye on the fluid level or you can melt pistons. Just another suggestion

[coloradodave]

Below is from a site discussing the pros and cons of using E-85 fuel in a non-flex fuel vehicle:
"Alcohol has a high affinity for moisture absorption and that water separates out fast which can quickly start corrosion in the metal reservoirs and fuel lines made from other than anodized alum or stainless. So it should not just sit around - it needs to be flushed or used up fairly soon. "If I recall.. most cars sprung leaks back in the 80's from the alcohol/petrol mix deteriorating rubber hoses and seals quickly which prompted manufacturers to start building the fuel systems alcohol safe ...on those rubber parts anyhow. I know my 1980 car lost fuel pump hoses at the tank and from the hose on the crash switch over my footwell after using some "GasAhol". Seemed fine, until it got the squirts."
In talking with NHRA racers who run alcohol or E-85, ALL of them changed over their entire fuel systems to stainless steel after encountering corrosion and rust issues in the tank and lines. They also drain the systems after every race day. If you shop race carburetor shops you'll find alcohol carbs and fuel pumps are a lot more than just 'jet changes'.
I think I would do a lot more investigation before subjecting my motor to a fuel that has opinions coming down on all sides of the issue. On the other hand I love people who 'take chances'. I hope you'll keep us informed as to your experiences. It will be interesting..............

[benno440]

we own old mopars if you were worried about MPG why do you have a mopar?

[Garys1969RR]

I dont mind the MPG so much, just trying to find a more economical way to run a high compression engine. And maintain or raise the power output. We're talking $3 a gallon fuel, versus $7.50 a gallon. Just about ready to begin this experiment. Will keep you all posted.

[Snoman]

keep us posted, i am also thinking about e85 versus 7 buck gal. race fuel. thanks

[Garys1969RR]

Well havn't got around to trying it yet, although I did get the 700 dbl pumper dialed in pretty good! For race fuel. Had to change the primary metering block, and main jets. Next step is to make some 1/4 mile passes to get a performance baseline. Put 3.91 gears in, and the old Road Runner really moves out now!

[cwhubb]

good info guys, I was under the impression the engine block and reciprocating goodies had to have some kind of treatment to deal with e85.
my caravan is flex I use it if its way cheaper than gas, milage isnt great, I read up on it and found out the btu of e85 is less than gasoline, so it takes more of it to get the oomph out of it. and the quality does vary, i go to the same station and you get good running stuff and then total crap other times

[cwhubb]

I just remembered this, Myth busters did a test on the acetone gas additive rumor. basicly the rumor is acetone makes gas more chemicaly efficient and raises octane.
they tested it in an old beater engine that ran rough and when they used the acetone it actually did make the junker run way smoother, it was a by ear test no dyno

[Garys1969RR]

Well for an update, the old 69 Road Runner is running 13.76 at 103 MPH best. Thats with 100 Sunoco fuel, feeding the 451. Still haven't got around to trying the E 85 yet, but maybe some day. Track closing within a month so may try it out next season on E 85

[Garys1969RR]

Oh yea, this is with factory HP ex manifolds, and I un hooked the mufflers.

[court9155]

For what it is worth, out of my garage, I built a small block ford 331 inch A4 block and AFR heads with a chinese on3 turbo kit it made 789rw/839tq @18.5 psi at the wheels on E85, Bob Kurgan tuned. Drove it to rancho murietta for the dyno session and drove it back. I installed a larger pump and 80lb injectors after building the engine. It did, from what my customer told me, peg the injectors or come close to it. I cannot remember. It is also converted to a slot style blow thru MAF. He had a difficult time, or rather cut it close, driving home and finding E85 stations but using the locator he was fine.

His car is an animal but that is with boost.

I put e85 in my turbo volvo and it would not run. This was due to me having no manual or electrical control (tuner) of the timing.

I have no experience with all motor applications and e85 but I can tell you my customer. Jason Ewing aka cornoil and boost aka chinopsu (google is your friend) drives the wheels off of this car and it has the same rails, regulator, lines, tank as it did with gasoline.

Dan

[Vega]

Hello all, ive been stalking this site for a while now and seeing this post prompted me to finally join. Ive been an advocate of E85 for a few years now and would like to chime in on this subject and maybe shed some light on it. From what ive seen there has been a lot of good info here so far, there is a lot of misinformation out there about E85 and typically the hardest part is trying to weed out the truth from rumors. You guys seem to have it pegged pretty well but just as well heres my take on it:
(please excuse the length of this post, just trying to share what bits of knowledge i have attained haha)

E85 is an awesome fuel in my oppinion. It has a high octane and is very cheap for that octane rating. Most people, when comparing E85 to gasoline, compare prices of E85 to Regular, when in fact 85 octane isnt exactly a proper comparison to 105 octane. The best comparison ive seen on the entire internet so far was right here on this forum where the $3/gal E85 was compared to the $7.50/gal race fuel of the same octane. E85 does naturally use more fuel than gasoline but one thing most people tend to not think about is the extra power you get from E85. In a flex-fuel vehicle the motor is built to run on gasoline but can run on E85, and with all things even back to back tests will show worse mileage for E85. However in a motor built for E85 you can run much higher compression, make a lot more power, and because of that power run a more street-able gear set with the same outcome as a lower-compression gasoline motor with more gearing, which will help offset the fuel consumption. Also the extra torque provided means the motor is working less which should also help mileage a bit, and E85 burns cooler than gasoline, cooler burn means cooler air, cooler air means more power, more power means less work, less work means more mileage as well so youve got a few things helping you out on the MPG side already. The difference in mileage comes from one motor being a gasoline motor that can run E85 and the other being a motor built specificly to run E85. There is a member on bangshift.com who builds Pontiac 400s and 455s on E85 specificly for mileage and has acheived some amazing results.

One piece of misinformation out there is that E85 is corrosive. That is a rumor that is most likely from the name similarities between Ethanol and Methanol, Methanol of course being a very corrosive fuel. Ethanol, like all fuels, does have some corrosive properties but not enough to affect anything beyond 30+ year old rubber. Which even in factory original carbs a carb rebuild is recommended eventually and the rubbers would be replaced with modern pieces anyway so that wouldnt be an issue. Ethanol does however have several cleaning properties in it, which can be both good and bad. It can be good because it means less carbon build-up in your motor which means less maintanence, a healtheir motor, and less friction in places which will make for a more efficient motor. It can also be bad though if you have converted a gasoline motor as gasoline will leave lots of build up in the motor which will be cleaned out by the Ethanol and will most likely end up clogging filters, ports, etc. This clogging effect is also usually interpreted as corrosion by mechanics with little experience with Ethanol. This is why most E85 conversion websites will advise you to start fresh with a brand new fuel system. With a new fuel system you have a clean, deposit-less system to work with that will not get clogged up by previous build up. You can see how this is also sometimes misinterpreted as "you need a new fuel system because E85 will corrode your old one".

As previously mentioned in this thread E85 can be run in a 10:1 motor if so desired but is most effective in a 12-14:1 compression motor. Both carb and fuel injected motors are pretty simple swaps, just swap the carb or injectors and youre good to go. The high octane coupled with the low burning temperature of E85 make it an awesome fuel for high compression. Couple that with aluminum parts and youve got a some serious potential.

Now for the out-of-car bits about Ethanol. Some mention Ethanol could hurt the food supply. In the US Ethanol is mostly made by boiling the kernals of feed corn to get the chemicals needed to produce the fuel. Once boiled the kernals are sent back to the farms to be fed to livestalk and since kernals hold no nutritional value and are otherwise non-digesteable (dont ask how i know this haha), the amount of nutrition and energy gained from them is the same even after the Ethanol-making process. Another rumor is that Ethanol does not sit well, this one is true. Ethanol absorbs moisture more quickly than gasoline does which makes it harder to store. However the only negative impact this has is in transportation, which is why E85 is much more widely available in the mid-west. It just takes too long to transport from the plant to coastal regions. Once in a vehicle though it can last a month or so without the fuel being run through the motor, but as long as you make sure to let your vehicle run every week or so you should never have to worry about moisture polluting your fuel. On a side note it is recommended to let your vehicle run some here and there when sitting for extended periods whether running E85 or Gasoline as the gaskets need to be lubed and other fluids need to be circulated.

Ethanol is can be an amazing fuel, but it really does depend on what your goal is and where you live. In the mid-west its readily available, cheap, and easy to obtain. So for those people it is a great alternative and highely recommended, however people located in places like California or New York or Florida, for example, might have a harder time with it. As mentioned your goal is a big factor too. If you plan to run E85 in a motor that is not optimized for it you will not see very radical results and will most likely be disappointed. Flex fuel vehicles are a good example of this, while convenient, theyre not very effective. However if your plans are to aim for a very effective strip car that is easily street-able E85 will be your best friend. You could even use it to try to maximize the mileage on your vehicle by focusing on smaller cams, less gearing, and more torque, which will result in a very efficient vehicle. As for efficiency in the street/strip car, yes you will see mileage decrease, but when mileage is 12mpg anyway a 25% decrease will honestly be barely noticeable.

Well i feel like ive been typing for an hour and im sure youre sick of reading by now so i'll wrap this up haha. Personally i love the fuel, and am hoping to build a 440 for E85 use here very soon with goals being high power and moderate gearing with overdrive to maximize street/strip effectiveness. I hope ive shed some light on the subject, hope ive made a good impression on my first comment here, and hope to see more of you all in the future. And as a final comment i'll just say, my favorite thing about Ethanol is that it is 100% grown, processed, and sold right here in America, and i couldnt imagine a more fitting fuel for my all-American muscle car than an all-American fuel :-)

[Garys1969RR]

Thanks for your helpful info, Vega. The fact that its not as corrosive as I first thought is a good thing. My next step on this engine is some 915 heads with bigger valves. And some porting work. The smaller chambers will bring the C/R to around 13 to 1. Plus will have better squish/quench effect than the open chamber heads I now have. So I will be ready for the E 85 test by next spring. Looking forward to trying this out! Thanks again, Vega.

[67 B-body]

Thanks for your helpful info, Vega. The fact that its not as corrosive as I first thought is a good thing. My next step on this engine is some 915 heads with bigger valves. And some porting work. The smaller chambers will bring the C/R to around 13 to 1. Plus will have better squish/quench effect than the open chamber heads I now have. So I will be ready for the E 85 test by next spring. Looking forward to trying this out! Thanks again, Vega.

What kind of pistons are you using to get 13:1 compression with 915 heads?
I have .140" domed pistons and Victor 75cc chambers,,,, that gets me in the 13:1 area..... Maybe 13.5:1......

[Garys1969RR]

What kind of pistons are you using to get 13:1 compression with 915 heads?
I have .140" domed pistons and Victor 75cc chambers,,,, that gets me in the 13:1 area..... Maybe 13.5:1......

Hi 67, I am using Ross 14cc dome pistons, .017 below deck, .020 Head gasket, 3.75" stroke, 4.375 bore, and 80 cc heads (915s) come to 13.3 C/R on the KB piston C/R calculator.

- - - Updated - - -

Oh, and right now I have 906 heads on it. So at 88 cc chamber volume I get 12.11 C/R. Going to the 80 cc head, the 100 Sunoco may not be enough octane. What fuel are you using, 67? Plus I am at 5200 feet MSL

[67 B-body]

I'm able to run pump gas 93 octane with a bottle of boost added to 10 gal fuel cell.... It runs better on Av-Gas 100 low lead better though!
I have often thought about E-85 since the neighboring town has E-85 available. I have 1/2" aluminum fuel line from the back to front, so I think I'll be OK.... My only concern is the foam in the fuel cell, and how it reacts to E-85.... I think the last time I got fuel cell foam for the late model "alcohol engine" I had to specify alcohol.....
My piston are 14cc dome too....

[Vega]

No problem, honestly i was just hoping my post wasnt a super long monotonous drone-fest haha. 13:1 is exactly what i was thinking for an E85 build also, they can support 14 or maybe 14.5 if you wanna push it but keeping it lower is good for the street, and a 13:1 compression motor is already an insane street motor so between 12 and 14, 13 is a good mid-point between mileage and performance (never thought id say that about 13:1 compression haha). Also the fuel cell is a good idea, not only is it a new, clean fuel tank, but it would be great to have a larger fuel capacity so you dont have to bite your nails if you ever gotta hop between gas stations looking for E85