440 combo sound good?

[Bansheestrokeher]

Hello i have read many many post from this site and many others over the past year or more trying to gather as much info as possible. I have however just joined this site today and have finally started the process of my motor build which will be going into a 74 SE Charger that I am swapping from an original 318/904 to a 440/727. This will be a street car and ocassional race car. It will be by no means a full blown drag car though

Currently I have a full 440 motor dated 4-3-1975. Here is the combo I am thinking of going with.

*L2355 six pack replacment pistons with moly rings
*Factory LY reconditioned rods with ARP bolts
*OE crankshaft
*Going to have the machine shop mock it up and set the deck height at zero to -.005 down the hole
*452 open chamber heads, stock (no port work)
*MP 509 cam
*Electronic distributor

A couple questions I have for everyone is
#1 what springs are being used with the MP 509? Trying to stay away from duel springs for the fact of a tight budget and they require extra machining work to use.

#2 what size head gasket should I use to help achieve proper compression for pump gas

#3 should I have my decked and if so how much? I measured all my combustion chambers tonight and all seen to range in the 90-95cc (I'm told this is normal for mopar iron heads to vary) which seems pretty large to me?

#4 can anyone tell me roughly what my compression ratio will be with this setup?

#5 is the 509 cam a bit much for a street car? I am seeking a cam that will perform well with this setup but I was however wanting a nice long duration and high lift to give it a nice heavy "broken" idle so to speak

Thanks Sam

 

[66Satellite47]

Pocket port the heads while off. Much power gained from a simple pocket port. If you don't mill the heads a good deal, the CR will be low. Sounds like you can use the stock style .018" steel gasket. MP 509 should be no problem, depends on the rear ratio & tork convertor you are running.

 

[PurpleBeeper]

You are basically describing my motor..... here's what I've learned in the last 20+ years of owning it.

1. I would suggest that you NOT mill your block to get a particular deck height. You might want to "square" the head surface of the block, but I personally wouldn't mill the block any more than necessary. Intake manifolds start to get hard to bolt up (ask me how I know).

2. The 292/509 purple shaft does not give you good vacuum which means almost no power assist if you have power brakes, so keep that in mind. I actually pulled my 292/509 for a milder cam for that reason.

3. You should balance the motor since you're putting in pistons that weigh different from the stock '75 pistons.

Now to answer your questions.....

1. The 292/509 purple cam is "on the edge" per the old Direct Connection book between single & dual springs, so you can use either. I used the doubles, but probably shouldn't have. It does cost more, I don't rev my engine to 7000 rpm and I think the springs might be "wiping" my smaller cam. (wearing down the lobes)

2. Head gaskets - There is a HUGE range of thicknesses available these days. If you want to be accurate, you have to calculate your static compression ratio. That is just cylinder volume with piston down divided by cylinder volume with piston up. Maybe you can just get in the ballpark with some pre-calculating & select the head gasket thickness once the heads & short block are assembled and you've cc'd both the cylinders & the combustion chambers of the head?

3. see #1 at top
4. not sure, calculate it if you know the cylinder volume too
5. 509 is about as big as I'd go on the street & suggest you go smaller, especially if it's an automatic and you plan to drive on the highway (e.g. 3.23 gears and not 4.10's)

 

[moparedtn]

You are basically describing my motor..... here's what I've learned in the last 20+ years of owning it.

1. I would suggest that you NOT mill your block to get a particular deck height. You might want to "square" the head surface of the block, but I personally wouldn't mill the block any more than necessary. Intake manifolds start to get hard to bolt up (ask me how I know).

2. The 292/509 purple shaft does not give you good vacuum which means almost no power assist if you have power brakes, so keep that in mind. I actually pulled my 292/509 for a milder cam for that reason.

3. You should balance the motor since you're putting in pistons that weigh different from the stock '75 pistons.

Now to answer your questions.....

1. The 292/509 purple cam is "on the edge" per the old Direct Connection book between single & dual springs, so you can use either. I used the doubles, but probably shouldn't have. It does cost more, I don't rev my engine to 7000 rpm and I think the springs might be "wiping" my smaller cam. (wearing down the lobes)

2. Head gaskets - There is a HUGE range of thicknesses available these days. If you want to be accurate, you have to calculate your static compression ratio. That is just cylinder volume with piston down divided by cylinder volume with piston up. Maybe you can just get in the ballpark with some pre-calculating & select the head gasket thickness once the heads & short block are assembled and you've cc'd both the cylinders & the combustion chambers of the head?

3. see #1 at top
4. not sure, calculate it if you know the cylinder volume too
5. 509 is about as big as I'd go on the street & suggest you go smaller, especially if it's an automatic and you plan to drive on the highway (e.g. 3.23 gears and not 4.10's)

Regarding what PB said about intake manifold bolt-up after milling of block/heads:
AMEN!!!
I'd imagine a smarter way of gaining compression (and you do want to on that '75 motor, since it doesn't have much) is by use of the proper pistons.
Try to leave the gasket surfaces of the block and heads alone as much as you can, cleaning them up just enough ("squaring") to get a good seal.
You'll rue the day you did a bunch of machining when you go to mount the intake later otherwise.
Trust me.

Regards the 509 cam - had one, didn't like it and yes, the "battleship" double springs wiped cam lobes on it. I believe that particular cam was one of the infamous "weak" ones Mopar was selling at one point some years ago but even still, there's a lot of roughness and tuning issues with the 509 anyways and IMO, not enough power gain to justify putting up with it.
There's a bunch of better designs out there these days. Comp Cams is a favorite of mine.

Plenty of folks have built solid, reliable and strong motors out of the later model 440's, cast crank and all. There's a boatload of info out there on the web on just this subject.
Research, research, research!

 

[66Satellite47]

Regarding camshaft selection, the industry has made great improvements. Talk to a builder that can talk to the folks in " the back room". There are so many grinds available if you know how to get them.

 

[IQ52]

This is a 440 build with the pistons you are thinking of. I think your stock cylinder heads are a mistake but you need to use what you have. If it is in the budget a set of prepped aftermarket aluminum heads would be of great benefit. We used ported iron heads because we are engine builders and have the knowledge and the tools to do so. Read through it, it has our deck heights and combustion chamber sizes and other information you can compare to. Getting intake manifolds to bolt up simply requires milling the proper head surfaces the correct amount. Or if one wishes, milling the intake manifold.

http://www.forbbodiesonly.com/moparforum/threads/pops-440-is-near-ready-to-dyno.64775/

 

[Bansheestrokeher]

This is a 440 build with the pistons you are thinking of. I think your stock cylinder heads are a mistake but you need to use what you have. If it is in the budget a set of prepped aftermarket aluminum heads would be of great benefit. We used ported iron heads because we are engine builders and have the knowledge and the tools to do so. Read through it, it has our deck heights and combustion chamber sizes and other information you can compare to. Getting intake manifolds to bolt up simply requires milling the proper head surfaces the correct amount. Or if one wishes, milling the intake manifold.

http://www.forbbodiesonly.com/moparforum/threads/pops-440-is-near-ready-to-dyno.64775/

Great read thanks for the info. I am on a budget so for now I plan to use the good set of 452 heads I already have but I would like to upgrade later to a nice set of aluminums. It's just not in the budget with everything else I need to do this swap.

My stock heads measure 90-95 CC depending on the dome measured (they vary) do you think I should mill some off them? If so how much? What about my block, I don't really want to have to get into having intake problems or spending more money on that but if I do not mill the block down down my compression will be very low won't it? Would maybe a different set of pistons set me up higher towards zero deck without milling the block?

 

[Bansheestrokeher]

Regarding what PB said about intake manifold bolt-up after milling of block/heads:
AMEN!!!
I'd imagine a smarter way of gaining compression (and you do want to on that '75 motor, since it doesn't have much) is by use of the proper pistons.
Try to leave the gasket surfaces of the block and heads alone as much as you can, cleaning them up just enough ("squaring") to get a good seal.
You'll rue the day you did a bunch of machining when you go to mount the intake later otherwise.
Trust me.

Regards the 509 cam - had one, didn't like it and yes, the "battleship" double springs wiped cam lobes on it. I believe that particular cam was one of the infamous "weak" ones Mopar was selling at one point some years ago but even still, there's a lot of roughness and tuning issues with the 509 anyways and IMO, not enough power gain to justify putting up with it.
There's a bunch of better designs out there these days. Comp Cams is a favorite of mine.

Plenty of folks have built solid, reliable and strong motors out of the later model 440's, cast crank and all. There's a boatload of info out there on the web on just this subject.
Research, research, research!

What do you mean proper piatons? All deck heights were the same to my knowledge I think the pistons were just different CR in the 75-79 motors. Please correct me if I'm wrong which I may be. What pistons are you thinking would be good?

 

[Bansheestrokeher]

I'm not really looking for major HP I just want a nice motor that will put alot more than the 250 ish HP that these 75-79 motors had from factory. It's just a street/play car so I'm not looking to set any records here. I'm mainly wanting to get my comp raised up a bit without expensive/extensive machine work if possible cuz these motors were so low comp originally

 

[moper]

Here's my take...
If you want a good, reliable engine there are certain basic tasks and parts that need to be addressed. You do not need a "zero deck". Especially with one of those oldchool heavy pistons. You can blueprint the deck height. that means it's cut to the designed height. They are never, ever very close to that blueprint figure. Nor are they really flat, or parrallel to the crankshaft centerline. That's because the old millers can't really get them that good (by modern stanards) easilly and becuase the factory guys were churning out as many as they could in 8 hrs. You will need to balance it. If the engine is a cast crank (and should be in '75) then I would use KB hyper pistons. They are plenty strong, run a much tighter bore clearance, and are much lighter. The cast crank counterweights are lighter. So to balance in properly they will have to add Mallry metal (heavy metal) to create the offsetting weight they need. It's fairly expensive stuff. So the less you need the better. Lighter piston means less Mallory.
The heads need a complete valve job. Normally that means new guides and unleaded exhaust seats among other things. Have the giudes and spring seats trimmed during that work. It usually costs me $30 during the valve job for that and you can run single or dual springs. I would replace the valves with performance stainless nailhead peices. You'll get a little more flow from them and they get back a little volume in the chamber. Mill the heads to get them flat. Don't worry too much about the static compression ratio. It will end up just shy of 9:1. That's fine. Run the right cam and you will be much happier filling up on pump cheapie unleaded from anywhere and it will still make a boatload of torque. Modern valve jobs use cutters that have a throat cut, and a chamber cut. Use a shop that has thar 5 angle deal. Use of the modern 5 angle and performance valves will get you 85% of what a bowl porting job will get you, for no extra cost beyond the valve job.
On the cam - I would not run an MP camshaft. If you must, go smaller than the .509 or .484. Both of those will feel soft down low. Modern grinds may want dual springs, so it' good to have the heads cut. Choose something no larger than 230° @ .050 and degree it when it's installed. Run the valve springs the manufacturer recommends. A "broken" idle sound is just that: broken. Don;t buy ANY cam for the idle noise. the reason powerful engines have that idle quality is because they suck at idling and suck at off idle response and torque. Get the right cam for power. Let the idle be what it will be. You'll get a lot more respect, and have a better driving experience.
Use a std stock replacement gasket, or the thin shim one if you have money in it.
I'd run a windage tray.
I'd run a std volume oil pump with the HP relief spring.
I'd run stock type 1/2 groove bearings.

 

[383man]

You would be better off if you use a closed chamber head if you can get any in your budget. And of course a modern aluminum would be best but even the older iron closed chamber heads like the 915's would work. Then I would look to use a flattop piston and work to set them at zero deck so you can run the .039 head gasket and have good quench which will help alot to fight spark knock using this crappy pump gas we have today. But if you are on a tight budget and have to use what you have I do understand as my whole life has been on a budget. I also would not use the .509 cam in that combo. I can tell you years ago I built a 383 using stock pistons and stock bore of course and I used the 452 open chamber heads I had. I decked the block just to clean it up and milled the heads for a true 9.5 comp. I used the older MP .484 cam and stock rockers as I shimmed the rocker shaft just a little to set lifter preload. I used a Comp single spring with a dampner and they worked good with that cam. I ran the RPM intake and a 750 DP. Used a stock electronic dist I curved the advance in. I put that 383 in a 72 Dart with 3.91's and a Turbo Action 10" converter. The car did not ping on 92 pump with 36 total timing and the Dart weighed almost 3600 lbs with my 180 in it. It also ran as fast as 12.31 @ 110 at the track. The old MP.484 cam did work nice in that combo with the converter and gears I used. I do think the .509 is to much for your combo as the .509 is more cam then it sounds like. Good luck with yours if you have to use what you have I would try to get your comp in the 9.0 to 9.5 area to have decent performance without to much comp to cause spark knock and detonation. Course your cam selection will also have a factor in that. Ron

 

[steve from staten island]

I read your page Ron! WOW

 

[383man]

I read your page Ron! WOW

Thank you , Ron

 

[66Satellite47]

Banshee, just re-read the whole thread. To recap my thoughts, mill the block only enough to get to "blueprint" spec, mill the heads to match your goal CC's (based on calculated CR), piston choice should be made after consultation with a professional. With those heads you may need some dome but flat tops are better. I have no experience with the MP 509 cam but "back in the day" they didn't seem to run nearly as good as the cams I ran at the strip. I recently ran a Comp that is like .501/.510 @ 274/280, ran pretty good & very street friendly but not BIG power. Also select a good converter, that makes all the difference.

 

[SlinktRR]

I agree with Ron, MP 484 is a nice cam. has good mid-range power comes alive up top and will have a semi-choppy idle in a 440...all with basic valve springs, no frills. Vacuum will be low, maybe 10-12". Low end is not good you will want a 2800+ converter and 3.73's or better to really enjoy it as intended but I do like blasting around at 90MPH+ with this cam and highway gears. Being there are so many cheap options with flat tappet it's worth looking at other suppliers than MP...and default to this one if you just want to build it and be done.

 

[WileERobby]

Nice advice on these posts, I'll just chime in on your cam choice, in my opinion, forget the 509 in your case. if you go MP, 484 at best, or I'd use a Hughes or Comp grind to suit your combo.

 

[Bansheestrokeher]

Thanks for the replies everyone I am on a budget but winter is setting in here anyway so I am just going to slow down and save a few dollars and buy some aluminum heads. I have been quoted around $1000 for a good rework or these 452 heads and for that price I may as well spring for the alumiums instead. As far as the cam I think I will stay more with the .484 or maybe even a comp grind. I hear issues even with power brakes not working due to vaccume with the .509. that is for the info guys.

Another question is what sorts of speeds to RPM ratios are you seeing with the 440/727 using the 8 3/4 rear end. I am trying to decided what gear ratio I want to go with. I rarely do highway driving but this car will cruise at speeds of 60 ish at times. I have found a 3.91 489 case Sure grip i was thinking of picking up but I'm worried my RPMs might be screaming at 60 with 3.91 ratio?

 

[SlinktRR]

http://www.grimmjeeper.com/gears.html

put in your tire diameter, final drive ratio and it will give you a good estimate. I ran yours with a 28" tire and yes it will be screaming. 3000rpm at 60mph. 28" is like a 275 r15 bfg radial t/a.

 

[66Satellite47]

Thanks for the replies everyone I am on a budget but winter is setting in here anyway so I am just going to slow down and save a few dollars and buy some aluminum heads. I have been quoted around $1000 for a good rework or these 452 heads and for that price I may as well spring for the alumiums instead. As far as the cam I think I will stay more with the .484 or maybe even a comp grind. I hear issues even with power brakes not working due to vaccume with the .509. that is for the info guys.

Another question is what sorts of speeds to RPM ratios are you seeing with the 440/727 using the 8 3/4 rear end. I am trying to decided what gear ratio I want to go with. I rarely do highway driving but this car will cruise at speeds of 60 ish at times. I have found a 3.91 489 case Sure grip i was thinking of picking up but I'm worried my RPMs might be screaming at 60 with 3.91 ratio?

If you are concentrating on street performance, 3.91 is the top, 3.73 would be good, or 3.55. My 4.10 with a 28.5 tire is 3300 RPM AT 60 MPH. Freeway driving is not great. Do the math with your tires & the 3.91 gear. I knew a alot of guys in the old days with 3.91 gears on the street. They all seemed really happy with them.

 

[moparedtn]

I used to love 3.91's with my 440 4-speed cars.
Used to.
Now I have 3.55's in the GTX and even they are too much - the car simply needs another gear at highway speeds.
Overdrive needed for real!