Who runs a solid flat tappet in their stroked 400/440 ?

Engine, Trans & Driveline

  1. Kern Dog

    Kern Dog FBBO Gold Member FBBO Gold Member

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    As usual, just spitballin' here.
    I am leaning toward going with an adjustable valvetrain in the Charger. My 440 based 493 has the Mopar performance 292/509 camshaft and replacement stock rocker arms and shafts. The belief was that Ma Mopars line of Hydraulic cams were designed with mild lifts to allow the retention of the OEM rocker arm gear. Some say though that the ratio was intended to be 1.5 but has been known to vary, mostly to less than 1.5. This means loss of lift and duration, therefore power.
    I am considering a switch to the adjustable kit from Hughes Engines. Their kit is priced at around $550. This got me thinking: Since I am making the jump to an adjustable setup, why not consider using a SOLID flat tappet cam?
    My compression ratio currently is 10.73 to one. I have Edelbrock RPM aluminum heads with the 84cc chamber. They are not ported or modified in any way. 2" TTI headers with a 2.5 exhaust system. Edelbrock RPM dual plabe intake. Barry Grant 850 VS carb with 85/92 jetting. MP electronic ignition. 727 with 2500 stall. 3.91 gears in a 3900 lb car.
    Any suggestions on a cam?
     
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    • blue_stocker

      blue_stocker Well-Known Member

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      Keep the lift up and the duration fairly low so you make more torque and have plenty of bottom end. If you're using this as more of a 'daily driver', look into Bullet Cams master profiles, maybe something in the low 240s @ .050 x .560 or so w/1.5 rockers. Engle used to make some pretty good grinds but I haven't browsed their site in a while (englecams.com). Whichever way you go, keep the LSA in the 110-112 and 108 intake CL usually work well too. You might call Bullet Cams and talk to Kirk or one of the guys there as they'll steer you in the right direction. Best to you...wb,

      Bullet Cams--8785 Old Craft Rd. Olive Branch, MS. 38654 ph. 662-893-5670
       
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      • Kern Dog

        Kern Dog FBBO Gold Member FBBO Gold Member

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        Thanks,
        The car isn't really a daily driver, but more of a fun part time car. I have taken it to Los Angeles 3 times, Reno once and all around Sacramento. I have only ran it at Sac raceway twice in 13 years. I enjoy spirited street fun with it. I put less that 2000 miles per year on the car.I understand that solid lifter engines require less maintenance than back in the day. I wouldn't shy away from the twice yearly lash adjustment.
         
      • rumblefish360

        rumblefish360 Well-Known Member

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        Adjust the valve train when it clatters or ET drops a noticable amount. Having headers and loud(ish) mufflers hide the loose lifter clatter. I highly doubt annual rocker adjustments are needed.

        A 240@.050 cam is as small as I would go. You'll need a bit more duration to equal the Hyd. Cam. The problem here is your low stalling converter. If you want a cam to more closely match the converter, it would be one much closer to a stock RR cam, 1 step above kind of thing. 2500 would use a cam at around 230@.050. A stroker eats up cam duration so going larger is OK. Like mentioned in the above post.

        See what you can get with as much lift as the head can use. Factor in the lash!
        A custom grind is only a few bucks more than a off the shelf grind a d well worth the money spent.
         
      • wedgie

        wedgie Well-Known Member

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        Andy Finkbeiner highly recommends the old MP .528 solid lifter cam in his book. He's done a bunch of research and testing.
         
      • rumblefish360

        rumblefish360 Well-Known Member

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        That old cam runs surprisingly well. I myself would run 1.6 rockers with it. It has about the right duration for what you have and IMO, want.
         
      • RustyRatRod

        RustyRatRod Well-Known Member

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        The worst thing about the stock paddle rockers is, if you run the spring that 509 really needs, you risk puncturing the pushrod cups with the pushrods. Although the .509 is relatively low lift, it requires a spring a good bit more than stock. To me, that's the weak point, not the possible questionable ratio.

        I highly recommend adjustable rockers on any HP build, simply because you can taylor lifter preload to your wants. I like light lifter preload of around .020". Might make a little noise, but boy it sure will make them rev. Hardened chrome shafts and good billet hold downs are a nice addition.

        Not too long ago an old friend gave me a very nice set of the old Isky iron adjustable rockers for my 383 build. They have the preload springs to locate the rockers on the shafts, but I plan on replacing them with spacers. My suggestion to you would be to find something similar. Isky, Crane, Mopar Performance and even Erson all made iron adjustable rockers for the Mopar at one time. They pop up on ebay all the time. They will stand more spring pressure and lift than you would probably think. I wouldn't be afraid to run them properly set up with a .750 lift roller. They are that strong. Of course, you'll need all the right parts in place and them properly set up to do it, but they will stand it.

        The Hughes stuff is certainly nice. If you have deep enough pockets, go for it. My advice as far as ratio is, pick out a cam with the lift you want and stick with the 1.5.

        As for cam recommendations, what are you lookin for? Flat tappet solid? Hyd roller? Solid roller? Any of those can be street driven every single day if you want. If I had as much nice stuff as you, I would be consulting with someone such as Hughes to get their ideas on cams. But remember, they SELL them for a living, so fish through the bullshit when they start the sales pitch. Same with Comp or any other company.
         
      • benno440

        benno440 Well-Known Member

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        with that engine imo should be looking at a cam around the 240-250 @.50 duration
         
      • Kern Dog

        Kern Dog FBBO Gold Member FBBO Gold Member

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        I don't know who may have read my other posts about having some detonation issues with the engine, but I read every response and appreciate all the suggestions.
        Rusty: I agree that places that SELL are more likely to push their products. To describe my knowledge: I have built several engines that were in the 8.5 to 9.5 compression range where it wasn't quite as crucial to detonation as THIS engine is. I'm sorta like a novice with access to play with the big boys so I rely on a mix of my own experiences and the advice of others. Some advice makes sense and others do not. 2 weeks ago I took the advice of a respected engine builder despite having reservations about it. He advised using thicker head gaskets and a smaller cam because he said he used a similar setup and it worked well. I ordered through him and had second thoughts after the order had shipped. Now I am facing return shipping charges and a restocking fee for going against my gut. I cannot blame the vendor entirely. I should have politely thanked him and turned elsewhere.
        I have considered the MP .528. I have heard nothing but solid reviews from those that have used it. The clatter of a solid lifter isn't a problem. I enjoy the sounds that these engines make compared to a modern car with converters, mufflers, resonators, hood silencing pads, etc.
        A buddy has the Hughes rockers on his 340/412 build. He likes the performance but said that the instructions for the spacers were not helpful. He said he had to "trial and error" each side numerous times before getting the rocker arms properly positioned above each valvespring.
         
      • Grabinov911

        Grabinov911 FBBO Gold Member FBBO Gold Member

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        Hey Greg I'll take your advice! Would you mind looking at my Road Racing Engine thread that I just updated? My engine plan sounds a lot like your engine... I'll meet you in Fresno and buy you a beer????
         
      • bigmanjbmopar

        bigmanjbmopar Newb with a view

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        I am the one weirdo here, I run hydraulic cam with solid roller lifters from comp cams 1.5 ratio rockers. makes the old sewing machine racket but dam is it fun lol cam is 274/282. Makes good power through t the ranges. Have adjusted mine once since install, maybe 1200 miles? looking at doing it again soon just for shitz and giggles

        Oh and a cool thing I wish I had done was the spring spacer, I used the washer type spacer and shims to center the rockers over the valves I think the spring would have saved me some headache putting it together and would be self centering all the time just saying, call Mancini's for all your stuff those guys are rock stars in my book.
         
      • Kern Dog

        Kern Dog FBBO Gold Member FBBO Gold Member

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        Mancinis, huh? maybe I'll give them a call.
        I looked at the Summit racings site and found that the MP .528 solid is a 3 bolt setup. I have never seen one like this other than the Chevys I used to own. Does anyone have a picture of the 3 bolt attachment? Do they mean that the cam sprocket attaches to the cam end with 3 bolts? It sure doesn't seem to be enough meat there for that. On a traditional 1 bolt like the small blocks, a convex washer is used, retained by the single bolt.
         
      • bigmanjbmopar

        bigmanjbmopar Newb with a view

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        3 bolt cam with cam button, this is my comp cams XR274 Hyd.

        IMAG0581.gif
         
      • Propwash

        Propwash Well-Known Member

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        Got a Comp solid flat tappet in my 512. Had no problem making well into the 600 ponies range and just about 700ft/lbs of torque. That's with 244/252 duration on 1.5 ratio roller rockers. With the valve lash set right and cast aluminum valve covers, it's a surprisingly quiet valvetrain. Searching around the web and asking lots of questions when picking out my cam, I did not like all the negative feedback on the MP purpleshaft grinds. Seems to be alot better grinds from other MFG's out on the market today. My cam is the 3 bolt as well (used the Comp Magnum timing gear). It has notches to dial in the centerline. If it can't be achieved with the notches, the buttons can be used. Good luck.
         
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        • Kern Dog

          Kern Dog FBBO Gold Member FBBO Gold Member

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          Thanks again. I wonder what the advantage is of the 3 bolt vs the much more common 1 bolt. Greater shear resistance ?
           
        • Kern Dog

          Kern Dog FBBO Gold Member FBBO Gold Member

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          Does anyone know the reason for two different setups... ONE bolt versus three?
           
        • 383man

          383man Well-Known Member

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          My eng in my 63 is a 493 I built and I run a solid flat tappet cam. Its 10.6 comp with Indy EZ heads. I have a custom grind cam that I told the grinder I wanted to make good power and have some lope in the idle. My cam is 264 & 270 at .050 with about .631 lift on 1.6 rockers. It has a 110 LSA and I have it in on a 106 ICL. I love the way it idles and runs as it will go 10's and thats just the way I drive it to the track. Here is a clip of me leaving the local cruise night. Ron

          http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bYIM2HLaOI4&feature=related
           
        • Kern Dog

          Kern Dog FBBO Gold Member FBBO Gold Member

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        • wsutard

          wsutard FBBO Gold Member FBBO Gold Member

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          Kern, did you ever get your answer on the three bolt vs one bolt?
           
        • Kern Dog

          Kern Dog FBBO Gold Member FBBO Gold Member

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          THis is actually the cam that I went with!
          It is a 3 bolt setup. I had to buy a new timing set but I usually do when I have changed cams before.
          It has been a windy road.....I first went with a pretty rowdy Lunati solid, the 316/326. the actual specs are a bit fuzzy to me since I ran the cam several years ago....Lift was .556 intake, .578 exhaust (1.6 rocker ratio) and the duration @ .050 was something like 261/271 I/E...It ran friggin strong but at that time, I was getting annoyed with my loose converter and the whole setup in general. I had a GV overdrive and while the reduced freeway rpms were great, the throttle response was soft. I toned it all down a bit by swapping in the 528 cam, an 11" converter that flat out WORKS and I pulled the GV and sold it. I now run 3.55 gears and a regular 727.
          Oh...The 3 bolt VS 1 issue: I can only guess that the 3 bolt design is favored for the reduced chance of shearing off the bolts or dowel?
           
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