Current old car values

[696pack]

I have been watching a lot of different threads on several sites such as this one:
http://board.moparts.org/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=4829610&an=0&page=0#Post4829610

I think many people are missing a key item with regards to all of this. When the prices of these car start to come down, the desire to restore them does as well. When this happens the resto shops slow as well and so do the rediculous prices they have been charging. This is not a slam to anyone in particular.

A few years ago I had a conversation with a then friend that owns a resto shop that asked me about the value of a particular car in restored condition. He wanted to know what the maximum would be that he could charge for the restoration. You notice that I said used to be a friend. I find this to be sickening. How is it that resto shops feel that they are entitled to ALL of the potential profit of one of these old cars when they have no vested interest? Are they the ones that looks for months or years to find the car? Did they do all of the parts scrounging? Are they the ones that take the risk of purchase and retaining value from the time of purchase until sale? You won't get any resto shop to admit it but this is far more common that you think. Many of the owners of these old cars have no one but themselves to blame for this situation because they pay the price thinking that the prices will just keep climbing as they think they will eventually at least break even or maybe make some money because of the continually rising prices.

To all of this I say "just say no to rediculous resto shop prices." It like anything else in the worlld, it is supply and demand driven. Do you really think that people will continue to support them when it is a matter of throwing money at something that is totally foolish from a financial standpoint? Yes, I know that some people have cars restored for the pure love of it without regard to ever making any money or at least breaking even. OTOH, I talk to A LOT of people across the country that tell me that they justify having an "extra car" (old muscle car) because they know that when they sell it they will either make money or at least break even unlike their daily transportation. It also helps to sell their wife on the purchase.:tongueflap:

Some of the whinners complaining about the current market need to look at this situation and lay some of the blame where it squarely belongs, it is not ALL related to the generally economy some of it is greed driven by both the car owners (and how they spent their resto money) and who they squandered it with.

There are only so many rare useable parts for some of these cars that are not reproed nor ever will be. Regardless of the current economy if someone wants to purchase one of these items do you really think that there is going to be any bargains. Yes, there will be the occassional seller that is hurting for money, but again, it is supply and demand driven. This is unlike the supply of labor for the restoration which is never ending and subject to the TRUE daily supply and demand.

I am seeing many regular type repair shops cutting back and closing their doors, so it certainly has to be effecting resto shops that are primarily supported by people spending "extra" disposable income that no longer have it.

All of the conversations in threads like the one I linked to above continue to refer to the restoration cost as a consderation as to what someone should pay for a project. While I agree it is something to consider, but people also need to consider that these price will DROP as well.

Just some food for thought and my OPINION.

 

[63hemipolara]

Same holds true for parts rapists like Frank Mitchel

 

[696pack]

Same holds true for parts rapists like Frank Mitchel

Yep, that is true also.

 

[AdamR]

I have 5 cars currently in my shop and 5 more guys waiting. Why ? Because of shops like your talking about. Dont get me wrong theres no such thing as a cheap resto but I dont see how someone can charge $15,000 just to repair a uni-body and spray down some primer when I can do a entire car for $10-12K

We just finished a Cuda that was in 2 or 3 shops before ours. The last time he had to sue the guy to get his money back after he painted it 4 shade of yellow and didnt line up any of the sheet metal.

Now the car is straight, lined up prefect, all one color and it cost him less for us to do it then the last guy charged.

 

[kidsixpack]

Great points! I've been saying this for years! I have a great example of a complete rip off resto. My buddy sold a #'s matching 28,000 mile survivor 70 Hemi Bee to a big collector! Very nice car!! The buyer never laid eyes on the car. The people that picked it up worked for him. They said it needed to be restored? Sent it to a high dollor shop that proceeded to charge him $180,000 for a resto.... Are you F'n kidding me!! Now he's all tied up in the car for twice what it's worth and can't move it! I say Good! It's the morons like that, that ruined the hobby for the last few years and now the market is correcting itself! How in the hell can you put 180K into a car?? I just don't see it! These dickheads can keep thier 30K paintjobs too!
KID

 

[696pack]

Yeah, don't get me wrong I am not saying they are all bad, but it seem more are than are not.

Over the years I have owned an automotive repair shop and a bodyshop. That is not to say that I am a mechanic or a bodyman. I am a businessman. However I can and have rebuilt engines and many other componants so I have an idea of the time it takes to do most things, and when someone is treating me fairly or trying to screw me. Some of the costs that people on some of these web sites throw out that they have either paid or have been quoted are just plain outragous.

I am glad to hear that you are staying busy and have a realistic idea of what it SHOULD be like in the business.

So many places that tout themselves as a "full service" restoration shops are simply facilitators of subleting work to others and marking the sublet work up by at LEAST 25% I can be my own "general contractor" and save that fee, and typically find someone to do quality work for less than the people they want to sublet the work to in the first place. Some will say it is worth it to them to have someone coorodinate all of the work. IMO, these people have no business having a car restored and would be MUCH better off buying a done car. I like everyone live in a world of percentages, but unlike many pay attention to what those percentages are costing me. 25% of say $10K of subleted work of a restoration is $2500.00. That goes along ways towards an engine rebuild that 99% of these so called "restoration shops" don't have the equipment or ability to do in the first place.

 

[flypaper]

it only matters for the people in it for a buck
my heart doesn't bleed for them when they lose....

 

[kidsixpack]

it only matters for the people in it for a buck
my heart doesn't bleed for them when they lose....

I agree, but with all the goudging thats been going on in the resto. business it's become somewhat impossible for the average joe to get a resto. done! I see them coming down all over! I don't think that the cost of the resto. has anything whatsover to do with the value of the car from the shops standpoint! Makes me sick!
KID

 

[flypaper]

I agree, but with all the goudging thats been going on in the resto. business it's become somewhat impossible for the average joe to get a resto. done!

yup,its not an average joe hobby like it used to be unless you do it all yourself.
greed changed that.

I see them coming down all over!
no choice the well is empty




I don't think that the cost of the resto. has anything whatsover to do with the value of the car from the shops standpoint!

if they want to eat they will have to come back to earth
and that goes for more then just the resto shops.


in the past
the cost of resto almost always exceeded the value of an old car.
you did it for the love of a car,you knew you wern't gonna get rich
then the boom happened and every greedy person that could make a extra buck would try to get it.
that goes for parts sellers,restoration shops and car sellers/flippers
now the cow is dry, if they don't change they will starve sooner or later.



Makes me sick!
i've been sick for years,
watching the greedy take it in the shorts is starting to make me feel better



KID

making a buck in the car repair buisness isn't easy to begin with
now with the economy in the dumps it becomes that much harder.

 

[alleyoopmgv]

I have been a autobody / painter for over 21 years. I have been restoring muscle cars for over 11 of these years. I think it's just a matter of the old car market and supply and demand. Some resto shop guy watching Barrett- Jackson on tv seeing a hemi cuda go for $800,000 saying to himself " i restored that car and he got that much for it". well next time i'm gonna charge twice as much because he did all the work, not the guy that sold it. and then it just trickles down. I have ranted about this before, i'm tired of people asking me to restore their 70 charger r/t for $6000.00. restoring cars isn't the easiest work in the world, it actually sucks. but when i'm at a car show and one of the cars i restored gets a complement, it makes it all worth it. Anyways, i would like to get paid what i'm worth. it's an art or a talent, just like custom painting or building houses. Don't get me wrong, i think it's gotten way outta hand. I honestly don't think there is a car out there worth more then $10,000. there just cars, i love them and it's my passion but there not worth millions of dollars. Shops do charge to much for resto's i cant even fathom a resto for $180,000. I can usually restore almost any car for $10,000 to $15,000. my prices are not what the market can bare, my prices are determined by the prices of products, materials, and how much time i will have into the car. My prices will not come down until the prices for products and materials goes down.

 

[flypaper]

There are only so many rare useable parts for some of these cars that are not reproed nor ever will be. Regardless of the current economy if someone wants to purchase one of these items do you really think that there is going to be any bargains. Yes, there will be the occassional seller that is hurting for money, but again, it is supply and demand driven.

sorry d :santa:i have to disagree here.:tongueflap:
i have been watching the prices of certian rare parts like a hawk for
quite while
and they just like everything else have taken the hit.
not as fast or drastic as other stuff but they got dinged also none the less.

some that i have seen sell now at half the price of what they were getting 6 months ago and i have seen this more then once. the ones that haven't gone down in price,haven't sold.
stuff i bid on a year ago and that i would never win,i have won on the opening bid now.
people just aren't spending the loot right now..

 

[AdamR]

. I can usually restore almost any car for $10,000 to $15,000. my prices are not what the market can bare, my prices are determined by the prices of products, materials, and how much time i will have into the car.

Are you talking restore the body or the entire cars? I would say $10,000 to $15,000 is about fair for a quality body restoration. Meaning some metal work, 1/4s trunk and floors. Straighten, block, paint and buff. I couldnt do an entire car for that. Especially when you spend a week just block the car out.

For what its worth the sign on our wall says $64 an hour. I never really tracked my hours to see how close we are but I bet thats on the cheap side.

 

[69f6bee]

Just curious, are the cost of paint and primer coming down any?? I know that the good brands have been really expensive lately.

 

[alleyoopmgv]

Are you talking restore the body or the entire cars? I would say $10,000 to $15,000 is about fair for a quality body restoration. Meaning some metal work, 1/4s trunk and floors. Straighten, block, paint and buff. I couldnt do an entire car for that. Especially when you spend a week just block the car out.

For what its worth the sign on our wall says $64 an hour. I never really tracked my hours to see how close we are but I bet thats on the cheap side.

No, i'm just talking about the body, but like almost every car i do i block and prime a car at least 3 times, usually 4 to 5 times. $64 is pretty fair. I charge about $45 plus material cost, an hour and i know thats pretty cheap. Almost every one around here charges $70 to $85 an hour. I track all of my hours, just so i know where i'm at.

To answer your question 69f6bee, the prices of paints and primers will never come down. All the major brands go up at least 10% every year, they dont care what's going on. Thats the average across the board. They usually go up right around the first of the year. If they want to lower their prices, they will just come out with a new product that's comparable, but not as good as the good stuff.

 

[AdamR]

Thats sounds about were we are too. The 74 Cuda we just finished I blocked 5 times. Thats a days work each time plus 4 coats of primer adds up quick.

69f6bee, Paint keeps going up and up. A gallon of primer is between $100-150 a gallon for what we are using.

 

[GTXperience]

Same holds true for parts rapists like Frank Mitchel

Do not get me started on Frank! What a piece of work! I have recently been made aware (by several BBD members) that he sold his business off. I say BS! He will never let that business go. He is still involved with it, I can almost guarantee you. I think that he brought in someone to be the faceman while he just works in the background as usual. I believe it is a family member.

 

[GTXperience]

No, i'm just talking about the body, but like almost every car i do i block and prime a car at least 3 times, usually 4 to 5 times. $64 is pretty fair. I charge about $45 plus material cost, an hour and i know thats pretty cheap. Almost every one around here charges $70 to $85 an hour. I track all of my hours, just so i know where i'm at.

To answer your question 69f6bee, the prices of paints and primers will never come down. All the major brands go up at least 10% every year, they dont care what's going on. Thats the average across the board. They usually go up right around the first of the year. If they want to lower their prices, they will just come out with a new product that's comparable, but not as good as the good stuff.

I can't wait to see the new water soluable(sp?) crap that they are coming out with here on the SF Peninsula flies. I know some of the old croonies are not happy about this at all.

 

[AdamR]

The Paint companies are really pushing there water born paints. If they became mandatory expect to see a lot of shops go out of business. They require special guns, Booths, paper, tape ect. Not to mention the learning curve to spray it.

 

[ACME A12]

I don't think that the cost of the resto. has anything whatsover to do with the value of the car from the shops standpoint! Makes me sick!
KID

My buddy is prime example of this mindless phenomenon. He has a '71 Challenger 'Vert with a 340 and a 4-spd. He's been trying to find a shop to do the paint & bodywork on the car for a couple of years now. Every shop he has gone to always inflates their quote because it is an E-Body convertible and they have seen one or two episodes of the B-J Auction on Speedchannel. It is just ridiculous. He finally gave up on farming it out and started the trunk floor & quarter panel replacement in his back yard. He's going to take it to someone to have them do the finish work and lay the paint down on it when he's done. Needless to say the whole thing has left him very bitter.

Ray

 

[Pastortom1]

I talked to a Ditzler tech recently about the waterborn systems they're pushing, and he thinks with the new "Administration" we just inherited, it could be a lot sooner than we think for a mandatory conversion to waterborn basecoats. Hope not.

On the subject of prices, 3 years ago at my shop in NY, I had a local body guy (a rodder....great work and good reputation) come in to look at my Charger I'm building. I had completed putting the car in new steel as required, and had roughed it in with 80 grit........Good lines, and very little left to do. (I have over 30 years in body work myself....the car was straight and ready to finish).

I asked him how much to block the car properly and apply the base/clear that I was supplying. (his only raw expense would be paper and primers/sealer.) He looked at the car as it sat ready to finish, and said "At LEAST 5 grand!"

I understood what "At LEAST....." meant too....it meant 6 or more. I was asking literally for a week in his shop at a nice slow pace to do what was needed, with me supplying him whatever he needed apart from his choice of finish primers. That's one #$%$ of a weeks paycheck if you ask me. :santa: