452 Head performance

At this point I would look at dollars to dollars vs your 452's and newly acquired 915's. if you have to put big valves in the 452's then the benefit of the induction hardened seats is gone.

I have no doubt that the 452's can flow big numbers. A 2" hole in a piece of sheet metal will flow big numbers, but I don't think airflow numbers are the whole story. You have to look at wet flow also. I'm no head expert, and I would really like to read what your head guy says about the 452's as he may shed some new light on my thinking - maybe they wet flow better? It's just that every wedge head that was claimed to be superior has the nice short side radius. The 440 Source heads have the short side radius and I'll bet the Edelbrock heads have it too - and they are not designed for emissions. One more thing to consider is the max wedge head with the raised roof and flat floor used tulip intake valves. Perhaps this helped smooth out the flow while going into the cylinder? Olds 455 and FE Ford heads have a flat floor and it's well known that if you want those heads to flow you have to raise the roof. Maybe try tulip intake valves in the 452's? I have a couple of old max wedge valves lying around I could lend for a flow test comparison.

Then there is the question of carb of FI. If you only move air you can get away with murder on the intake port. Just look at my 02 Durango 4.7 vs. the 62 413 long ram set up. Replace the throttle body with a carb on the 4.7 and it probably won't run as well, with some cylinders running lean, etc.... One thing these engines have in common is a very long intake runner, which has been proven to create a big flat torque curve. The longer the intake runner the lower RPM peak torque will occur.

I have stated my thoughts on cam selection here a few times, so maybe look up some older posts.

I would really like to see some detail pics of the rear wheel area on your car. I also have a 66 Belvedere and some day it will get a monster 440 built from spare parts I have lying around the shop. I will need some tire!

I've said this before. 452s have more short side radius on the exhaust side than a 906 does. It isn't unheard of to build up the short side on the intake runner to compensate for any shortcomings one might think they have. I've never done it, but I know it has been done with epoxy.

I also find it hard to believe a 915 will flow 90% of a max wedge head. Maybe if you hog the **** out of them then epoxy up all the holes you'll make in them. Their ports aren't any bigger than a 906, but maxi's are.

Meep meep, its only coincidence that my head guy is flowing/tweaking a couple sets of Edelbrock performer heads right now and the numbers he's getting out of the 452's match the as manufactured numbers (before porting)on the BB RPM heads up to the .507lift range, where he sees the rpm heads flowing well into the 300 cfm range. I definetly am not a head expert, just went looking for the most economical/reliable configuration and have traded mechanical work for bodywork. He has not overground the heads to the point of repairs involving epoxy, I will post pictures of his work on the heads as I am impressed. I am looking at a MP purple shaft cam hyd. profile, .509/.509 lift, 292 duration, advertised rpm range 2600-6000. If I purchase a 28-3200 stall coverter combined with my 3:91's I believe I am on the right track. I have to measure my slicks height (two pairs one for the strip one for the street before I do my final gear ratio calc's). I haven't bought the cam yet, just priced it out today.

I will see how these 452's do, I will have hardened seats installed with the larger valves. The 6000 series Ferrea valves are a tulip configuration I believe but twice the price of the 5000 series...more research needed!

I will post pictures as I get into the fabrication of my mini tubs, I am going to try and keep it looking stock. I would love to see pic's of your 66 Meep meep. Thanks boys.

Have you guys read the latest issue of Mopar Action? feb 09 issue...Page 70, article named Old man and the C. Interesting. Stock configured (C/S Stock eliminator class) 69 6bbl Road Runner runs 10.80's with a stock bore (.030 over 440, cast iron 906 cylinder head) Stock 6 bbl cam. Heads have been massaged admitedly in the article. Car weighs 3,725 lbs. Electric water pump, nice ignition, worked over carbs, Cal track mono leafs with a Dana sporting 4:89 gears. Love it.

Good articles I came across, you must read all links to get the whole story.

Introduction to Mopar cylinder heads:
http://www.moparmusclemagazine.com/images/mopp_0608_mopar_cylinder_heads/index.html

Part 1, Flow bench results
http://www.moparmusclemagazine.com/techarticles/5115_cylinder_heads/index.html

Part 2, Flow bench w/porting results
http://www.moparmusclemagazine.com/techarticles/5118_cylinder_heads_ii/index.html

Thanks to everyone that has helped, information is wealth!

:HappyNewYear:

66_B_Body4ever said:

I understand that there could be a thousand different setups that affect ultimate engine hp and torque, but does anyone have info on the performance potential of the 452 castings? I know they share alot of the same characteristics of the 906 with the advantage of hardened seats. My cylinder head guy says with work on the flow bench he has worked the 452's to 600+ hp. I am considering a 500 in. stroker kit from 440 source to combine with these reworked heads along with an Edelbrock rpm dual plane intake, no cam selection as yet. This will be a streetable combo with trips to the strip on occasion. I was tempted to buy a set of RPM heads but my head guy says he can work with the 452's...

Advice...experience...results?
I have looked through the site here at other 440 builds with great interest but hope that someone else has walked this line before.

BTW she'll be powering a mini tubbed 66 Belvedere.
Thanks in advance.

Mopar or no car!

Click to expand...

Depending on how much core shift is in them it's going to take a ferocious amount of time/money to get them to flow in the 280 cfm range...just buy some BARE alum castings from 440'sRus and port those.Then buy some good valves and springs and retainers for them.That's what I do.
Nothing wrong with worked on iron heads as long as someone else paid for the work and you pick them up for 700-1000.I have guys selling killer iron heads that they have spent 2500-3000 on to get them to flow 300 cfm only to sell them for the price of the hardware (valves/springs ect).
Not every iron head can be ported to over 280...maybe 10/15 % can get a maximum effort.

Thanks! I will have a look at 440's R us. I already have the 452's ported with apparent success. I doubt this will be my last build, or modification to this motor. All ifo is appreciated.

Do you have a website address for these guys? 440's R us?

66...

I should have said 440 source...

66_B_Body4ever said:

Meep meep, its only coincidence that my head guy is flowing/tweaking a couple sets of Edelbrock performer heads right now and the numbers he's getting out of the 452's match the as manufactured numbers (before porting)on the BB RPM heads up to the .507lift range, where he sees the rpm heads flowing well into the 300 cfm range. I definetly am not a head expert, just went looking for the most economical/reliable configuration and have traded mechanical work for bodywork. He has not overground the heads to the point of repairs involving epoxy, I will post pictures of his work on the heads as I am impressed. I am looking at a MP purple shaft cam hyd. profile, .509/.509 lift, 292 duration, advertised rpm range 2600-6000. If I purchase a 28-3200 stall coverter combined with my 3:91's I believe I am on the right track. I have to measure my slicks height (two pairs one for the strip one for the street before I do my final gear ratio calc's). I haven't bought the cam yet, just priced it out today.

I will see how these 452's do, I will have hardened seats installed with the larger valves. The 6000 series Ferrea valves are a tulip configuration I believe but twice the price of the 5000 series...more research needed!

I will post pictures as I get into the fabrication of my mini tubs, I am going to try and keep it looking stock. I would love to see pic's of your 66 Meep meep. Thanks boys.

Click to expand...

As long as he's comparing have him flow a 906 head (same port as the 915). Again, I don't think it's all about the CFM. Wet flow, bore size, valve shrouding, etc... all plays a role in making HP. I have read that tulip valves don't work in wedge heads as well as Hemi heads, but the Max used them and they have a flat floor. The 340 also uses them and they have a short side radius. Go figure. Like I said, I will be happy to send you a 2.08" max wedge valve for comparison (as long as i get it back) so you don't have to buy a set to find out they don't work. I think raising the roof on the 452's would be a huge improvement in flow.

3.91's may not be enough, but it sounds like you are on the right track. I ran a 4.88 dana in my 68 RR with a 383 and a .528 MP cam. It loved it :yes:

I spoke to the guy at 440 source and he said the 906/915 head flows about 220 CFM without porting and his aluminum heads flow 280 CFM without porting. I may buy a set of Edelbrocks or the Source heads for an interim engine I'm building to kill any curiosity I have. My 66 is the R&D vehicle. I'm thinking Velcro motor mounts!!!

Here's my 66 in the horrible CA snow storm.:rolling:

The green one.
http://www.forbbodiesonly.com/moparforum/showthread.php?t=1582

The guy that did the head work for my 440 six pack Bee that was 610HP on pump gas told me when I had my 452's that he could spend countless hours porting the heck out of them and they will never flow as well as stock Edelbrock RPMs out of the box. I took his advice, my compression was 10.1, he did some porting on the Eldos as well, .558 lift cam 260@50 (big lopey solid cam) and that netted 610HP. I also had full roller rockers. Saw 7000rpm a few times but regularly saw 6600. As a start, I had the MP .484 cam and the Hensley prepped 452s and the engine dynoed 490HP. Big jump with not a lot of money. There's my experience.

Thanks guys, helps me wade through the jungle of information with actual experience. BTW Mee-meep, that ain't snow in your picture...lol I have about 2 feet on the ground here in the sunny Okanagan where temps range from 0 to 100 F in the course of a year. thanks for the link to your Belvedere, green isn't that common, I added it to my collection.
Cheers, I will keep posting my progress with cam selection, gearing etc.