Barn Find of the day and probably of the year!

69 383 delete

As far as I know there is only ONE example of this. I argued with the guys on the A12forum.com about the car as there was NO A12 marked on the fender tag and the car had an H rather than an M in the V.I.N. and the car had no broadcast sheet. I said as far as I was concerned it was a 383 car with an after factory transplant since the car had no FACTORY documentation for the A12 package. They argued that the cars V.I.N. seqence fell right in line with other A12 RRs built

I have to agree with you on this. The A12's were labled as "383 delete" and were assembled without engines at Lynch road assy. I believe that there were likely several 383 cars that would fall into the "VIN sequence" of the A12 cars that were just that....383 Road Runners and Super Bee's.
If the above mentioned car was without a A12 designation on the fender tag, and no build sheet can be produced then it is indeed a 383 "H" car and no more.

Very interesting thread;as usual,informative and enlightening.

I'm gonna back Shorty64;my 35 years with the General(23 at the Buick complex as well,Shorty),many on the line,taught me that anything is possible. Many "oddballs" were built at the end of shifts,or at the end of a calendar month,to fill "build quotas". You really saw this just before model changeover. If there was a design change,lots of potentially obsolete parts(trim pieces and such) found their way onto models for which they weren't intended. As far as unusual engine/trans combos;let's say that some 1970 455 Stage I mills found their way into plain-Jane Skylarks instead of just GS's and GSX's. Rumor has it that a couple of four-doors came equipped with Stage I mills and Turbo 400 transmissions-I "know" people who may be able to verify this. They may have been "special" orders-something that was done by local dealers with close factory ties. Speaking of dealers...some would work with the customer to try(the operative word here) and get some unique vehicle built for an "influential" customer. I wonder if this particular C-body/Hemi combo may have been a "special" order,or...a dealer-performed transplant?

GM's numbering system left the potential for such shenanigans to go undiscovered;Chrysler's system-obviously-offers the greater potential for accurate de-coding and verification.

Great info guys! Nice to have people who were there to answer these type of questions.

yep

Meep-Meep said:

Great info guys! Nice to have people who were there to answer these type of questions.

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:iamwithstupid:, it's good to have the perception of the guy on the line....

bluefury said:

As far as I know there is only ONE example of this. I argued with the guys on the A12forum.com about the car as there was NO A12 marked on the fender tag and the car had an H rather than an M in the V.I.N. and the car had no broadcast sheet. I said as far as I was concerned it was a 383 car with an after factory transplant since the car had no FACTORY documentation for the A12 package. They argued that the cars V.I.N. seqence fell right in line with other A12 RRs built

I have to agree with you on this. The A12's were labled as "383 delete" and were assembled without engines at Lynch road assy. I believe that there were likely several 383 cars that would fall into the "VIN sequence" of the A12 cars that were just that....383 Road Runners and Super Bee's.
If the above mentioned car was without a A12 designation on the fender tag, and no build sheet can be produced then it is indeed a 383 "H" car and no more.

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Yeah, you, I and a few others agree on this but MANY of the members on the A12 forum bought the story that it is a REAL A12 and gave me a hard time about questioning it.

They all want to buy cars with fender tags and broadcast sheets to PROVE what they have. Then a car like this comes along with no B.S. and a fender tag with no A12 code and a V.I.N. with an H where the M is supposed to be and all the fender tab and B.S. logic goes right out the door. Go figure.

The guy that owned the car had endeared himself to the membership there. Me, not so much LOL! It just goes to show you what a little sucking up will do for your.

696pack said:

Yeah, you, I and a few others agree on this but MANY of the members on the A12 forum bought the story that it is a REAL A12 and gave me a hard time about questioning it.

They all want to buy cars with fender tags and broadcast sheets to PROVE what they have. Then a car like this comes along with no B.S. and a fender tag with no A12 code and a V.I.N. with an H where the M is supposed to be and all the fender tab and B.S. logic goes right out the door. Go figure.

The guy that owned the car had endeared himself to the membership there. Me, not so much LOL! It just goes to show you what a little sucking up will do for your.

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i agree with you here. there is no information to prove that it is , in fact, an A12 code car. from everything i know, early 6 pack super bees and 383 69 coronets can both fall into the same sequence order, they were built on the same lines.without a trim tag or build sheet, how are you going to prove it? it would be hearsay. each plant has their own specific sequence numbers that are issued to cars built on their lines and do not necessarily reflect a specific model production order. if someone came to me with an H code super bee claiming it was an early 6 pack car, and had every option an A12 came with, but did not have a trim tag or build sheet, i would have to call BS , unless there was some kind of other documentation proving otherwise. even showing it was built in sequence between the xxx276 and xxx305 H VIN A12 code six pack bees, i would still call BS without any other proof. sounds to me like the guy got lucky finding someone to fall for it and to pay good money for it. i can imagine he will have a hard time selling it , if he ever does. but like they say, theres one born every day

rooster1911 said:

And I will stir a little more, I bought a 96 Jeep Cherokee 4 cyl back in 96, it was brand new with only 5 miles on the odometer. as a few years went by the usual things would wear out ie the MAP sensor and somehow the alternator bracket was bent well I went through pure heck trying to get these things fixed I would go to even the dealership to get parts and they just would not fit even after running the VIN after a while this older gentleman at the the Dodge dealership nailed the problem - my jeep was the one of the first of the 96 models and Dodge was trying to use up parts from 95 so my jeep was a mixture of 95 and 96 parts and if I went to the parts store in search of something I had to take it with me and ask for both the 95 and 96 pieces to see what matched - True Story!

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not all that strange my 73 charger has 72 tail lights and thats the way it came

Could it be a 64?

I have a book that says the plymouth sport fury in 1964 has the option for a 426 hemi,so it is possible for a few of them from that year to exist ,in 66 I don't know.

shorty64 said:

However, comma. There are a number of cars from that era "that were never built!" but actually were, because someone knew someone who could alter the line ticket, do a "special" for a management type, etc.

There's all kind of old magazine articles about such cars, although I grant you I've seen more about GM stuff than Mopar or Ford.

I know of a 'Vette that belonged to Zora Duntov with a year or two ahead engine than available for that model year because "The Man" wanted to drive it for a while. It was built on the line, not in the prototype shop, etc. The guy who had it some years ago has just been letting it sit in his garage up to the point I heard about thru a mutual friend. And yes, he had seen the car up close and personal.

I worked at Buick in Flint in the mid '60's and I could write books about what I saw and even helped do that would flabbergast most folks. For instance, I saw a little 3 on the tree Special shipped with the small V8 instead of 6 (vs line ticket) just to help make the day's "shipped" numbers better. Justification? "Hells bells, the guy is getting more than he paid for!" I was told. Hmm, yup, just another satisfied customer!

So, never say never just because it doesn't match the printed source material. A lot of changes got implemented at the 11th hour right as the first cars were being built. Last year's knobs, emblems, floor mats, etc were often used if the supplier was late with the right color, style, etc.

Enuff from me - just needed to stir the pot amongst the authorities.
Sorry, I'll behave in the future.

RC

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My 70 GTX kept showing strange stuff when I started the restoration on it back in '92. As time went along I finally found the build sheet, shipping tags where the seats were air freighted from LA to St Louis, and a bunch of other paperwork just stuffed here and there. As I was taking it apart, it was obvious the car had never been painted or even worked on much, the only thing I found that wasn't original & numbers matching was the alternator.

The main thing I found that I had never seen before or even heard about was a stiff piece of cardboard, in different colors and listings, and it appeared to be an inspection sheet from the end of the line. It showed defects in the car and repairs/corrections made. Back then you could almost talk to GG anytime you wanted, so I made a call and told him what I had. He said it was something new to him as well. Wanted a faxed copy of it sent to him, I did so. What was interesting to him was the "Carb and induction" line, which was marked as being wrong, and replaced. The part number on the intake showed it as a 440 service part. The consensus finally came around that it was one of, if not the last GTX built in 1970,and that a 440-6 engine was picked up, stamped with the correct VIN and dropped into a U code car. With A/C. Won't work as far as the factory was concerned...can't order it, so they swapped the intake and sent it on it's way. No biggie, but things did happen, and it sure got a lot of attention. A copy of the car sold on e-Bay about 2 years ago, saying it was a copy of the car on the cover of Mar 94 Chrysler Power magazine, and the copy went for over $86K. I wonder what the real car would sell for now, cause the guy I sold it to took it home, painted it black, and parked it in his garage to be never driven again. He had about 40 cars and was spending a fairly large settlement from an accident while at work. Middle car in the pic is the one we're talking about. Guess anything can happen.

One thing this taught me... high dollar matching numbers cars make me nervous. I worried so much about someone hitting me while I was driving it that I never really enjoyed the car. Since then, I just build what I want to drive, and to heck with the numbers and what's correct. If you're checking numbers, you're not driving it, and if you're driving it, you can't be checking numbers. I wanna drive

rooster1911 said:

Well, none of us will never know about this particular car, I just tried to go and see if I could take a gander and it was gone, you have to admit though it brought up allot of good discussion. The guy did say that it was 1 of 50 ever made, who knows somebody might be driving down some country road some day and see a headlight or grill peaking out of a barn or garrage and one the other 49 will be discovered, if it's true.

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Well....sheeit. that's too bad. I was getting kinda curious about what the real story was. Maybe keep an eye on Craigslist for it to pop up, then get the straight scoop from the new owner...?

Well this thread was an interesting read, if not for the mystery car in question, at least for the other Mopar rarities. Never knew some of those early A12 cars were tagged as M-codes. Thanks to everyone for sharing

shorty64 said:

However, comma. There are a number of cars from that era "that were never built!" but actually were, because someone knew someone who could alter the line ticket, do a "special" for a management type, etc.

There's all kind of old magazine articles about such cars, although I grant you I've seen more about GM stuff than Mopar or Ford.

I know of a 'Vette that belonged to Zora Duntov with a year or two ahead engine than available for that model year because "The Man" wanted to drive it for a while. It was built on the line, not in the prototype shop, etc. The guy who had it some years ago has just been letting it sit in his garage up to the point I heard about thru a mutual friend. And yes, he had seen the car up close and personal.

I worked at Buick in Flint in the mid '60's and I could write books about what I saw and even helped do that would flabbergast most folks. For instance, I saw a little 3 on the tree Special shipped with the small V8 instead of 6 (vs line ticket) just to help make the day's "shipped" numbers better. Justification? "Hells bells, the guy is getting more than he paid for!" I was told. Hmm, yup, just another satisfied customer!

So, never say never just because it doesn't match the printed source material. A lot of changes got implemented at the 11th hour right as the first cars were being built. Last year's knobs, emblems, floor mats, etc were often used if the supplier was late with the right color, style, etc.

Enuff from me - just needed to stir the pot amongst the authorities.
Sorry, I'll behave in the future.

RC

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Shorty;we may know each other,depending on how long,and where you served your sentence at Buick. I was there from 1977 until 2000;when they shut down Engineering,I transferred,along with a lot of other people,to Saginaw Mental Casting. Breaks my effing heart to go by there(or AC,or Chevy...) and see-or not see-what's there.

He is correct folks;there were a few "specials" done over the years for either high-up management or even influential engineers. If the latter was the case,the car was usually altered at the Engineering facility after coming down the line. Back in the 1970's,it would have been something like a Riviera with a Stage II version of the 455 under the hood,or a car that I actually saw,an Estate Wagon with a very hot 455(plus)-incher under the bonnet. Add to that the variations of the Stage II 400(1969) or 455(1970 and 1972) mills in various Skylark models(including a sleeper 4-door rumored to have run around here late at night) that were built. In later years when the V-6 turbo cars came out,a whole 'nother group of "special projects" hit the streets. I saw a couple of them as well,and owned a 1985 T-Type Regal that had come out of Engineering and made its way over to Division 1(Employee sales) and had a few "non-production" parts and pieces that had not been removed prior to re-sale.

As far as the "leftover" parts and "build to fill" cars;yup,those occurred with regularity. As usual,the line employees got "blamed" for the discrepancies,when it was management that ordered and encouraged these builds. I was there. I know.

Michael789 said:

I have a book that says the plymouth sport fury in 1964 has the option for a 426 hemi,so it is possible for a few of them from that year to exist ,in 66 I don't know.

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. Yes. In 64 the Sport Fury was a B body and the hemi was available although it may have been later in the year.

Hmmmmm, I don't recall how I stumbled on this post. It seems as though I should have looked at the date......

rooster1911 said:

Well, none of us will never know about this particular car, I just tried to go and see if I could take a gander and it was gone, you have to admit though it brought up allot of good discussion. The guy did say that it was 1 of 50 ever made, who knows somebody might be driving down some country road some day and see a headlight or grill peaking out of a barn or garrage and one the other 49 will be discovered, if it's true.

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Reminds me of when I got my 1976 Ford Starsky & Hutch Gran Torino. They made some of them with 460 engines, and no one ever believed that's what was in there because it wasn't published anywhere. Every time I needed parts I would have to take them off and into the parts stores because there books showed no 460 Torinos. And I was considering installing a motorized hood because I got so tired of constantly having to open it to prove there was a 460 under it.

A 426 Wedge was available in 1965 in a "C", but that is the ONLY 426 anything available.

Yup, bring up and polish off an old, dusty thread!

Anything is possible. Like this car.

http://www.hotrod.com/cars/featured/1966-dodge-hemi-coronet/

And for everyone on thisn forum, you owe it to yourself to see Garlits' museum. It's sick! An awesome place.