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Yet another 440 overheating....help please

kiwigtx

kiwigtx

Henchman #4 and Jack-Stand Racer #2
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My buddy MowPar is busy mowing hay and hasn't had a lot of time between jobs lately, so he asked me to put the question out there.

The 440 in his '65 Belvedere is overheating at idle or when stuck in slow traffic. It seems to come down to a reasonable temperature when highway cruising, so the radiator is working.

Radiator is a good solid 3-row unit - absolutely mint inside,
Thermostat is 185* unit,
Shroud is complete now after a modification and draws a lot of air over engine and through radiator,
Fan is a 5-blade solid - no viscous unit,
Mild cam, standard HP exhaust manifolds, stock all round basically,
Temperature gauge in car reads high - issues with sender unit,
Temporarily installed an aftermarket gauge, shows a high temp also,
Laser temp shows temp is too high,
After shutting off engine, water is heard to be gurgling and hissing inside engine,
Engine actually smells hot and passes coolant out the overflow,
Cap is correct,
Running coolant mix and water - good proportions,
Heater works fine,
Just fitted a new GMB waterpump (Quality Japanese unit) and radiator has been rodded/cleaned.

After looking through several other threads, we are wondering is it possible to screw up the installation of the head gaskets (this engine has only done 350 miles, and we haven't taken it apart) - and consequently get a bad water flow.
Also wondering if there is something stupid like a blockage which is an easy mistake for an engine builder to make that we could look into?
We have loads of receipts for radiator and associated repairs/replacements etc, and wonder if there is a history we don't know about.

Any advice input welcome....thanks guys :)
 
Your fan is the issue. A head gasket issue would be worse on the highway. Do you turn the heater on when it starts getting hot? Does the temperature come down then? You need to move more are across the radiator at lower speeds to dissipate the heat.
 
GMB pumps are junk.I use the Mopar performance aluminum housing & water pump.
I have no room for a mechanical fan:icon_elephant:
 
How hot is it there right now? My 440 ran hot in summer ( around 90- 95 here in summer) until i advanced the timing. Previous owner had it at 5 degrees at idle. I set it to 12 degrees and my temps came down. I have a stock radiator, 170 thermostat, shroud,water pump, fan etc.
 
Hemi Rebel said:
Your fan is the issue. A head gasket issue would be worse on the highway. Do you turn the heater on when it starts getting hot? Does the temperature come down then? You need to move more are across the radiator at lower speeds to dissipate the heat.
Click to expand...

Thanks for the input...we have tried turning on the heater during overheating periods, temp drops slightly. Also forgot to mention we adding an controlled electric fan after the problem was realised. We also have a Transmission cooler which is separate from the radiator - ie/ doesn't run through the bottom tank as per factory. Do you think a 7-blade fan would be better? No room for a viscous unit with clearance to the radiator.

- - - Updated - - -

HEMI-ITIS said:
GMB pumps are junk.I use the Mopar performance aluminum housing & water pump.
I have no room for a mechanical fan:icon_elephant:
Click to expand...

We have found an original MoPar water pump which will be reconditioned this week and installed on the housing.

- - - Updated - - -

1970GTX said:
How hot is it there right now? My 440 ran hot in summer ( around 90- 95 here in summer) until i advanced the timing. Previous owner had it at 5 degrees at idle. I set it to 12 degrees and my temps came down. I have a stock radiator, 170 thermostat, shroud,water pump, fan etc.
Click to expand...

Mid summer here right now but the temp outside is only 20-24 deg C, (68*-75*) with reasonably high humidity and at sea level.
Timing has been adjusted correctly, and suits the fuel etc - also to drop the temp slightly.

- - - Updated - - -

kiwigtx said:
Thanks for the input...we have tried turning on the heater during overheating periods, temp drops slightly. Also forgot to mention we adding an controlled electric fan after the problem was realised. We also have a Transmission cooler which is separate from the radiator - ie/ doesn't run through the bottom tank as per factory. Do you think a 7-blade fan would be better? No room for a viscous unit with clearance to the radiator.

- - - Updated - - -



We have found an original MoPar water pump which will be reconditioned this week and installed on the housing.

- - - Updated - - -



Mid summer here right now but the temp outside is only 20-24 deg C, (68*-75*) with reasonably high humidity and at sea level.
Timing has been adjusted correctly, and suits the fuel etc - also to drop the temp slightly.
Click to expand...

Currently running about 210-215* F at idle and slow traffic. And around 176* on the highway.

- - - Updated - - -

kiwigtx said:
Thanks for the input...we have tried turning on the heater during overheating periods, temp drops slightly. Also forgot to mention we adding an controlled electric fan after the problem was realised. We also have a Transmission cooler which is separate from the radiator - ie/ doesn't run through the bottom tank as per factory. Do you think a 7-blade fan would be better? No room for a viscous unit with clearance to the radiator.

- - - Updated - - -



We have found an original MoPar water pump which will be reconditioned this week and installed on the housing.

- - - Updated - - -



Mid summer here right now but the temp outside is only 20-24 deg C, (68*-75*) with reasonably high humidity and at sea level.
Timing has been adjusted correctly, and suits the fuel etc - also to drop the temp slightly.

- - - Updated - - -



Currently running about 210-215* F at idle and slow traffic. And around 176* on the highway.
Click to expand...

Just wondering if the head gaskets may be incorrect type or incorrectly fitted. I have checked some, and they only have little slots where the water passes through the heads - however the casting on the block and heads have holes about the size of a quarter.

Is there another type of head gasket you guys prefer to use?

[video=youtube;e7xsAgimF6Y]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e7xsAgimF6Y&feature=youtu.be[/video]
 
Last edited:
Doesn't sound like a headgasket problem. This is an airflow issue. It's clear that you aren't moving enough air. I know because I have a 440 as well with the same issue as your friend: overheating in traffic or idle situations. If I let it, it would melt down in traffic. I upgraded to a 180* high flow Milodon thermostat and high flow milodon water pump. I also switched from a flex fan to a viscous fan setup. The difference was NOTICEABLY better. Like you, clearance was an issue, so I opted for a lower profile Hayden 2765 fan clutch and a flexalite 18" fan. Maybe you should measure before you strike it as an option. I have a good feeling that switching to a viscous fan setup and maybe adjusting the timing will solve your friend's problem.

By the way, I haven't resolved my issue yet because it involves swapping waterpump housing (to switch from passenger to driver's side inlet), which would allow me to upgrade to a larger 26" mopar style radiator. With my current setup (22 inch radiator), I couldnt get a fan shroud installed without downgrading to a 16" fan. Is your friend running a 26" radiator? Good rule of thumb is 1 sq. in. of surface area per 1 hp. 26 inches would be good for close to 500hp.
 
I had a overheating issue in my cuda for ages and I couldn't find the problem forevever....it ended up that the dizzy wasn't working quite right and the engine was working too hard to keep running....I only thought to replace the distributor because I was putting in a new ready run style one in... the old one even had a slightly bent shaft??? Just thought I would share this....
 
A couple of short video's here to watch. Lots of air movement as can be seen by the books and bags flying around in the workshop. The radiator is 22" and the shroud is drawing the air directly at the engine/water-pump area. The small electric fan in front of the radiator is switched, and was set to OFF for this test. The blade on it turned extremely fast as it was force run by the volume of air being drawn into the shroud - ask me how I know it runs fast :icon_redface:

[video=youtube;EdQg96VTHKw]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EdQg96VTHKw&feature=youtu.be[/video]

A second video is shown above.

We have a new distributor to test out the theory above, also trying a different thermostat temperature range.
 
Last edited:
kiwigtx said:
A couple of short video's here to watch. Lots of air movement as can be seen by the books and bags flying around in the workshop. The radiator is 22" and the shroud is drawing the air directly at the engine/water-pump area. The small electric fan in front of the radiator is switched, and was set to OFF for this test. The blade on it turned extremely fast as it was force run by the volume of air being drawn into the shroud - ask me how I know it runs fast :icon_redface:

[video=youtube;EdQg96VTHKw]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EdQg96VTHKw&feature=youtu.be[/video]

A second video is shown above.

We have a new distributor to test out the theory above, also trying a different thermostat temperature range.
Click to expand...

Yeah, but that wasn't at a idle. At idle the electric fan blade stopped. When it starts getting hot try throwing it in neutral and giving it some rpm and see what the temp does. A better water pump with a smaller pulley might help things too.
 
Hemi Rebel said:
Yeah, but that wasn't at a idle. At idle the electric fan blade stopped. When it starts getting hot try throwing it in neutral and giving it some rpm and see what the temp does. A better water pump with a smaller pulley might help things too.
Click to expand...

That is a good point, and we will have to find out if a smaller pulley can be sourced locally...unless someone knows of a vendor? And yes, the electric fan won't run at idle....so that is a good point. Thanks.

- - - Updated - - -

tallhair said:
The fan blades are orientated correctly right?
Click to expand...

yep, and the fan draws a lot of air though the radiator. :)
 
I'll go off in a different direction on a couple indirect things that will adversely affect engine temp, being these guys gave a lot of good places to look on the cooling system itself.... Check for Vacuum leaks at the intake manifolds or base of the carb? (will make it run lean, thus hot) Starter fluid in those areas while the car is running will identify a vac leak quickly. Where's the timing at? Too far out of whack, it will run hot. Set timing for max vacuum and recheck. Is that an edelbrock or carter carb? Is there a carb/plenum spacer? Are the crossovers in the heads blocked off? Are you sure the boiling noise is not the fuel peculating in the line or inside the carb? Is it hard to start after sitting for a few minutes? Hot/Overheated fuel to the carb will make the car run hot, especially at idle. It's compounded once the engine get's above it's normal running temp.
 
Thanks for all the good ideas and directions to look into. All ideas are being considered, and we have a few things to tackle straight away. I have just found out the engine has been bored 0.060" over.

1. The radiator cap is only 13lb, so changed that to correct type 16lb - this will hold the pressure of the water inside the engine and radiator better rather than passing coolant out the overflow.
2. Have the MoPar water pump rebuilt by a local expert and test its effectiveness.
3. Temp install of a new high volume plastic fan blade - similar pitch to the viscous 7-blade steel units. A lot of guys use them here with no issues it turns out,
4. Newly altered shroud needs another modification - the nose of the shroud covers the entire fan - it turns out that you should have 2/3 of the fan inside the shroud, and 1/3 outside the shroud - most guys go for 50/50
5. Install a new 26" radiator - but with 2-cores. A 3 or 4 core sounds better, but apparently it actually causes more interference for the airflow as it is drawn through by the fan. This comes from one of our local Mopar expert engine rebuilders - he has spent 30 years plus on these things.
6. General consensus is that the heads are fine and there is no need to go there.

We had heard that a 440 which is bored 0.060" over could generate hot-spots between cylinders, but apparently that can easily be overcome by some of the methods above, and also different types of coolant or additives, such as Water-Wetter.

The last avenue of cooling would be to get a more efficient electric fan which would cut in at idle or low RPM's around town, as the engine runs a good temperature at cruising speeds.

Once again, thank you to everyone, and if you spot something I've missed, please feel free to add a comment. :icon_pray::icon_pray:
 
Thanks Prop :)

The car is running an Edelbrock carb on top of a Edelbrock aluminium intake.
Timing is spot on, and the engine starts easily whether hot or cold...even after sitting a while.
It doesn't appear to have a fuel boiling situation.

Something else that came up in conversation was the exhaust heat riser flap. Apparently these are prone to rusting in the closed position which can cause the exhaust gases to reverse up the manifold and through under the carb, which would cause a heat build up.
Most guys over here remove the flap as we don't get the extremes of cold that some countries experience.
 
Roger, I'll add my 2 cents. My old eyes show me that the ELECTRIC fan shroud covers a good portion of the radiator core. I'd remove that shroud and mount the fan without it. As a PUSHER fan, it doesn't need it. Another thing; running 215-220 in traffic is not harmful to the motor. I understand the need to always have the motor running at 180*, but you can spend a lot of money and time trying to fix a non-problem. If it overheats, say above 230*, then it's a problem...but spewing a little coolant out the overflow should stop when the radiator level normalizes. Also, if you do replace the thermostat, drill a small hole in it so the air can bleed up and out when you refill the system. Good luck to you and your buddy.
 
X2 with removing the electric fan. That thing has to be killing the flow. It should run properly without that band aid. If you put in the 26" radiator, with a fan shroud and maybe a 7 blade non flex fan and 180* thermostat it should be fine. I have this setup in my 64 Sport Fury. It came from a 69 Road Runner and it rarely sees 200*
 
I went back to Ma Mopars wisdom and all is cool. Clutch fan, factory shroud, green coolant etc.
 
Hope you kids get it sorted out, sounds like air flow problem.... Radiator, fan, shroud..... Otherwise it would be hot driving also.
I saw mentioned on this forum that electric fans can impede air flow.
 
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