Building a Garage, debating the size?

2059 · Dec 31, 2015

How to heat a shop is always "Hot" topic.... (see what I did right there?, Huh..Huh...) Anyway, Over the years I've talked to soooo many guys about this and it boils down to a couple things.. 1st; the only 100% efficient heat is Electric Radiant. Meaning that all the energy spent to produce the heat stays in the bldg. No air make-up, no exhaust. With todays technology we are getting more out of every WATT and BTU...

At work, one of my support facilities (~250,000 sq/ft) has floor radiant heat. We chose that because it is a lamination facility and requires strict temperature and humidity controls. (It's though to control humidity if you have air make-up pouring into the bldg.). The only issues there are; we MUST keep it to temperature (70*+) ALL the time and, Maint has to be very careful when installing/moving equipment when anchoring down. In the manufacturing plants; (~22 Plants at ~65,000 sq/ft each) we use Natural gas fed Thermo cyclers. (A floor mount commercial forced air piece that cycles the ambient) We use them because we have better control over the ambient temperature for the entire bldg. and if we need extra heat at the exit/entrance overheads, we use an Natural gas fired inferred radiant heat tube.

Now the polar opposite... In my shop man cave. I removed the radiant electric because they were spinning the meter off the wall and installed one, shop length, LP gas fired inferred radiant tube. Clearly, I couldn't install in-floor as it was an existing shop. I'm not fond of forced air for the reasons started previously. I like radiant heat because it heats the objects in the area (Benches, Cars, Tools, floor, etc.) which then heats the air. I keep the shop at 55*-60*ish and keep the humidity between 10-30% (Humidity control is HUGE when it comes to comfort). I spend about $110/month for LP (depending on $/gal.) to heat the 30X60 shop 14' ceiling.

Ones location will play a big part in the type of heating device used. Upper mid-west will be different than southwest/east. You may want to talk to some HVAC installation tech's (NOT the salesmen) in the area to see what they "like/have" for themselves....

Good luck ! Keep us posted...

dvw · Dec 31, 2015

Mine is 40 wide 24 deep due to restrictions. It's still deep enough to work on my cab and 1/2 long bed dually, barely. However it allows 3 stalls and a work area. It would be nice to be deeper but I wouldn't give up the width. I'd heat only what you need, 1000-1500 sq ft? Mine is heated all the time as I live in Michigan with a hanging 100,00 btu (overkill). Leave it at 50 and turn it up when working. Warms up quickly from 50. I'm fortunate to have natural gas so the cost is reasonable. It's a pole style, everything is insulated, walls with 6" packed around behind the poles to stop drafts. It has tall enough ceiling that there is a loft sealed off and unheated. 24 x 8. Floor is 2 x 12, 16 on center. Harbor freight winch and swing arm attached to my hoist. I can put motors upstairs, compressors up there as well. also don't forget hot water. It also has an old window style A/C unit. don't use it often but when it's 90+ and humid I love it. Still managed to fit a hoist, blast cabinet, lathe, drill press, hydraulic press, solvent tank, 2 cabinets, 2 tool boxes and 30 ft of counter space. Actually for a work area it's pretty good. The problem is there are 3 cars as well. Fortunately one stays in the trailer.
Doug

Hemirunner · Dec 31, 2015

747mopar said:
I'd like to hear more about your setup and the operating cost.. pics to if you have them. It is expensive but they are really nice, most people that have them (the old style) only load them twice a day but I'm open to other ideas. For me burning wood is free fuel, I work at a sawmill where they give away the junk timber so I can grab a load after work or pay a logger $200 to drop off a whole knuckle boom load that last better than a year.

Here it is. Ignore the copper pipes and blue pex. That is compressed air distributed to the rest of the building. A couple things I've learned already. The heater is too small with 1/2" inlet and outlet and is a huge restriction to flow. A larger one would reduce the flow restriction and be more efficient. I'm leaning toward changing to natural gas for next year. I will also most likely add another pump on the return side. I have too large of a temperature differential and I think a higher flow rate would help that. The height of my pipes and heater just add head to the pump which isn't good. Full flow elbows would have been a good thing as well to reduce head. Also, don't fire them up in the winter. I just fired it up and I've yet to get the first bill, but it won't be pretty, so I can't get you a real good cost estimate yet.

747mopar · Dec 31, 2015

I can't believe one of those little wall heaters will do the whole shop...... What do you mean "don't fire it up in the winter"?

Hemirunner · Dec 31, 2015

The outside temp was in the 30's and I'm sure the conrete pad wasn't much warmer so it ran for a week trying to get heat into the floor.

HT413 · Dec 31, 2015

Regarding heat, radiant floor heat is great, but as you guys mentioned, the floor has so much thermal mass that it takes days to get it up to temperature. Radiant makes much more sense in an occupied space such as a home. Not sure this is the best bet for your application.

If a wood fired boiler is your prefered fuel source, than why not run ether hot water baseboard or even a unit heater with a warm water coil?

Hemirunner · Dec 31, 2015

Yes, radiant heat needs to either be on for the season or off. It's not the type of heat that you can just flip on if you want to go out and work.

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Having said that, I put in the floor heat so that I could store my cars and work on my cars in comfort whenever I choose. It's the same reason I put in central air.

Kern Dog · Jan 1, 2016

Hey there,

I went with a traditional style building. 60x32... sorta. I reduced the right side to 28' to give the building a little bit less of a boxy look. I framed it, stacked the roof, ran the siding and windows and wired it. I still need to finish the plumbing. 1608 sq ft.

bm02tj · Jan 1, 2016

If you use infloor heating map your tubing and leave spaces for bolting your lift if you get one
it is a real pain fixing a cut tube in the floor
Also make sure you use thermal breaks to the outside walls and insulate under the slab

747mopar · Jan 1, 2016

Kern Dog said:
Hey there,

I went with a traditional style building. 60x32... sorta. I reduced the right side to 28' to give the building a little bit less of a boxy look. I framed it, stacked the roof, ran the siding and windows and wired it. I still need to finish the plumbing. 1608 sq ft.

I've been thinking the same thing, leave a step in it and having a different ceiling height too. That does make it look allot better!

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HT413 said:
Regarding heat, radiant floor heat is great, but as you guys mentioned, the floor has so much thermal mass that it takes days to get it up to temperature. Radiant makes much more sense in an occupied space such as a home. Not sure this is the best bet for your application.

If a wood fired boiler is your prefered fuel source, than why not run ether hot water baseboard or even a unit heater with a warm water coil?

I think your right, I've talked to a few about it and it just doesn't make sense to me. My brother in law has it in his house and doesn't use it because of the amount of wood it eats. I think a radiator will be fine keeping it heated all winter long.

Duda · Jan 1, 2016

747mopar said:
I actually talked to a salesmen last night about an outside woodburner (boiler) and about the option of heating the floor. I'm looking at about $11,000 for a unit plus plumbing etc to heat the house and garage. They've done away with the old style boilers and the new ones won't let you burn green lumber but are 95% efficient compared to the 45-55% of the old ones so that's a plus. He said the same as what you guys are saying except he wouldn't recommend it unless I was going to heat it all the time. Got some thinking to do seeing how I mostly just spend the weekends out there, I'll likely do it though. I figure I can set the temp around 50 and have an additional coil to bump it up quickly while I'm out there. This would be a huge help with bodywork being able to maintain a decent temp and not having to warm all that metal up.

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I should add that adding the boiler has been on the table for heating the house anyways so this is just a reason to go through with it. I was putting it off because I didn't want to have to deal with the firewood but do to some recent changes at work I'll likely be staying at the mill for good so firewood is not a concern.

I have one building that is 45 x 65 with 18' ceilings. I have a new in floor system. I had to buy a large boiler to keep it heated. I set it at 60. When the temperature drops quick from 30 to single digits the system cannot keep up with it. I try to set the temp up a few days I advance if I know the quick change in temp is coming.

bm02tj · Jan 1, 2016

When you have in floor heating you need to have outdoor reset so it adjusts the water temp in step with the out door temp

RS23VOA · Jan 1, 2016

My shop is 40'deep, 72'long with 14' ceilings. My main work bay with lift is 40'deep and 24' wide. My work bench is on the 40' wall so I have the whole bay depth to move cars back and forth and work with plenty of space. The other portion I store cars and equipment. I also built a portable 4'x8' workbench on wheels the same height as the other workbench. Nice to be mobile. I have two 12x10 roll up doors and a 36" entry door. I wish it was 48' deep. And 80' long.

I have two blue 20x20 tarps hanging from the ceiling by a piece of hi tensile fence wire for a barrier between the two areas. I heat the small section with a torpedo heater for the time being. I hope to go with propane or fuel oil and some point.

HT413 · Jan 2, 2016

Another great idea, RS23. I also built a mobile workbench that is the same height as my main bench. I use it to store parts, I roll it next to the car when I'm pulling heads/intake, and I even use it as a service bar when I have people over lol.

Hemirunner · Jan 3, 2016

Total electric charges for 11-28 to 12-28 were $184 for house and building but it was a fairly warm month. I would expect the next one to easily eclipse $200.

Don selleck · Jan 3, 2016

30' deep is nice, plenty of room all around a car, when u pull in form the eaves side. I was gonna build a 30' x 40' friend talked me into a 30' x 50'. Just put an addition on back, and will probably put another on in the future. In other words build as big as you can and put it in a place you can expand later. The muscle car disease only gets worse.

747mopar · Jan 3, 2016

Trust me I know, like I mentioned before I already have a 100X32 (40' of it is a machine shop) that I share with my dad so I'm not all that worried about size right now. I'll likely continue to do the messy part of the restorations over there but bring them to my shop for the bodywork. Once the 24X24 is done it will allow me to move my car, dads bike etc out of the other garage freeing it up which at that point I'll likely be content for awhile. I'm actually considering building a T shape layout, the 24X24 being built first and then an addition running the opposite direction being maybe 24-30 wide but 40-50 deep. I like the long and fairly narrow approach because my biggest concern with the shop side of the build is climate control, I like the idea of only having 1 garage door instead of 2 (half the price, half the heat loss).

Seventy · Jan 3, 2016

I agree with the guys, on go big, BUT, its a balancing game.

I would rather have a really nice "big enough" building then a tossed together whatever...

Heres what I mean..

First check with the city/town, see what your legal options are...

Then check your budget....

Now I would them make a list of things you want and subtract them from your budget, then build it as large as the budget allows...

For instance.. heres what i would want, I built a lot of buildings, and now put a lift, and little shop in my attached garage, figure that out, the others are parking and I work out of the attached unit, lol....

Heating and air conditioning. I would want both... Figure a dual fuel heatpump/gas/14 seer AC $5000..
LOTS OF LIGHTING- $2000
Paint booth $8000
7.5hp single phase rotary screw $5500 with dryer and air lines
2 post lift, 4 post lift, and scissor lift (sunk in) $7500
Lots of insulation, nice wide power roll up 12ft dynaco doors (drive through, so 4 doors) 14ft ceilings, 8"s of cement, nice footing, drainage, bathroom with urinal, office, 13x16 clean room (keep all your tools in there and do engine work and builds), sand blasting room with powder coating oven, etc etc etc... I figured it all out, to put another building about 1500 feet from my house, way back in the yard out of sight even from the main house, would cost me $275K all equipped!!! Not too shabby... But it would be a full resto shop, I figure I need about 80x44, I would pour the floor 20 feet out the front and back, with the roof over hanging it, solar panels on the roof, so the pad would be 120ft long and that extra front and back would be covered, for fair weather parking outside...

I brought it to the town and they said I would have to sub that piece out and do it as its own lot, which would kill my home value and they would tax it commercial "of course", so it would cost me a small fortune to own, and use once a month, lol...

I am looking at a nice garage in fitchburg, ma, 120x45ish, has a shop in their now, taxes are only 5500 a year, rent for the auto shop that uses 3 of the 6 bays and one of the 2 offices is $1600 a month so that will cover tax and insurance, its in really nice shape, not old at all, gravel in front of it 30 feet off the street, BUT problem is its like 45 minutes from my house, and I want to be closer to home, not further, lol.. BUt the building is priced right at $275K, I cant build it on land for that..

Think of everything now, your building it yourself, getting materials for free, go really nice in the size you will use, if you are building it for storage, then just measure the stuff you want to store, lol..

steve from staten island · Jan 4, 2016

My shop is almost complete. Its about 11' 4'' by 25'6'' deep. Its about two foot into the ground because of the slope of the property,so the ceiling height is decent. I built a very small loft to hold some yard items. My compressor is going to be put outside in a small shelter next to the pool filter. I have a AC unit in the wall and a small 220v electric wall heater. The garage itself has three double pane windows and is well insulated. If i could have made it a few feet wider and deeper id be happy as a pig in **** but i couldn't so as small as it is at least its something. The word in the neighborhood is its going to be a social club,no woman allowed LOL

747mopar · Jan 4, 2016

steve from staten island said:
My shop is almost complete. Its about 11' 4'' by 25'6'' deep. Its about two foot into the ground because of the slope of the property,so the ceiling height is decent. I built a very small loft to hold some yard items. My compressor is going to be put outside in a small shelter next to the pool filter. I have a AC unit in the wall and a small 220v electric wall heater. The garage itself has three double pane windows and is well insulated. If i could have made it a few feet wider and deeper id be happy as a pig in **** but i couldn't so as small as it is at least its something. The word in the neighborhood is its going to be a social club,no woman allowed LOL

Way to go, should be getting to work on that car now right!!!!

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Seventy said:
I agree with the guys, on go big, BUT, its a balancing game.

I would rather have a really nice "big enough" building then a tossed together whatever...

Heres what I mean..

First check with the city/town, see what your legal options are...

Then check your budget....

Now I would them make a list of things you want and subtract them from your budget, then build it as large as the budget allows...

For instance.. heres what i would want, I built a lot of buildings, and now put a lift, and little shop in my attached garage, figure that out, the others are parking and I work out of the attached unit, lol....

Heating and air conditioning. I would want both... Figure a dual fuel heatpump/gas/14 seer AC $5000..
LOTS OF LIGHTING- $2000
Paint booth $8000
7.5hp single phase rotary screw $5500 with dryer and air lines
2 post lift, 4 post lift, and scissor lift (sunk in) $7500
Lots of insulation, nice wide power roll up 12ft dynaco doors (drive through, so 4 doors) 14ft ceilings, 8"s of cement, nice footing, drainage, bathroom with urinal, office, 13x16 clean room (keep all your tools in there and do engine work and builds), sand blasting room with powder coating oven, etc etc etc... I figured it all out, to put another building about 1500 feet from my house, way back in the yard out of sight even from the main house, would cost me $275K all equipped!!! Not too shabby... But it would be a full resto shop, I figure I need about 80x44, I would pour the floor 20 feet out the front and back, with the roof over hanging it, solar panels on the roof, so the pad would be 120ft long and that extra front and back would be covered, for fair weather parking outside...

I brought it to the town and they said I would have to sub that piece out and do it as its own lot, which would kill my home value and they would tax it commercial "of course", so it would cost me a small fortune to own, and use once a month, lol...

I am looking at a nice garage in fitchburg, ma, 120x45ish, has a shop in their now, taxes are only 5500 a year, rent for the auto shop that uses 3 of the 6 bays and one of the 2 offices is $1600 a month so that will cover tax and insurance, its in really nice shape, not old at all, gravel in front of it 30 feet off the street, BUT problem is its like 45 minutes from my house, and I want to be closer to home, not further, lol.. BUt the building is priced right at $275K, I cant build it on land for that..

Think of everything now, your building it yourself, getting materials for free, go really nice in the size you will use, if you are building it for storage, then just measure the stuff you want to store, lol..

Holy cow Seventy, I just want a shop not a full blown buisness lol. No red tape or permits to deal with, I'll decide what I want and build it. We're pretty fortunate to live where for the most part you do what you want with your property like it should be so no concerns there. Also consider I'm a middle class worker that doesn't take out loans so this will be out of pocket, for now I'm only building the structure but taking into consideration what I may want in the future. Still scratching my head on the paint booth.

Building a Garage, debating the size?

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