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Oil and filter quality and brands

Zinc is no good for catylictic converters. Use it on old cars. Polyalpha-olephin is think is the term. Others start off with conventional dino materials.
 
Zinc is no good for catylictic converters. Use it on old cars. Polyalpha-olephin is think is the term. Others start off with conventional dino materials.

What's a "catylictic converter"?
I didn't know I had one.
Does it hurt when I'm converted?
 
What's a "catylictic converter"?
I didn't know I had one.
Does it hurt when I'm converted?
Don't know and can't spell it. It's the thing under newer cars that starts grass fires in California.
 
Rotella? For diesels?
I read that while that does have "zinc" the detergent content is not right for gas engines.
That's on the internet somewhere.
Like "racing" oils. They have "zinc" but not enough detergent to keep the contaminates in suspension for the oil filter to work.
And I just read the instructions that came with my rebuilt engine.
Racing oils may not have the "rust preventive" additives.
Or so the reman people said.
Yep, that Rotella.

Lots of Zinc is what I was after. Detergents? Not sure, I only put 800-1K miles year on the old cars and they get changed every 12 months before storage. If it keeps a diesel clean I can't image what would be in a gas engine that it wouldn't do well.

I think you may have seen where the zinc will kill the converters as said a few posts ago.
 
Real synthetic, hmmmm.... Now I'm confused.

I use Fram. Not sure what issues are, I've never had a problem. I'll throw a twist in on the oil side - Shell Rotella 15/40 in all my old stuff.
My machinist builds high dollar engines for racing and street machines and that is all he recommends for any high horse power engine or any older engine. He pushes rotella and no zinc additive .
 
as far as zddp goes, not all rotella is the same. The synthetic blends (blue bottles) are very low in zddp to meet the new standards. Zddp is a catalyst poison (ruins the palladium/platinum catalyst in the converter) so it is around 800 ppm or lower in new formulations. Still high in the 15w40 but for how much longer is unclear. Get familiar with the "doughnuts" on the back of the bottle. Diesel oil is ok for zddp because no worries about catalyst, but the additive package is different than for a gas engine. If you change frequently it wont matter. Rotella diesel is dirt cheap so why not change often. I can't use 15w40 so I buy a different oil. If you use it, keep an eye on the API seal (doughnut). I think it is still SL rated which is the (very) old specification.
 
Yep, that Rotella.

Lots of Zinc is what I was after. Detergents? Not sure, I only put 800-1K miles year on the old cars and they get changed every 12 months before storage. If it keeps a diesel clean I can't image what would be in a gas engine that it wouldn't do well.

I think you may have seen where the zinc will kill the converters as said a few posts ago.

I wrote that very badly.
I meant that oil rated for diesels has too much detergent. I guess that is possible.
Can't remember the exact reasons but it would at least be sacrificing oil for detergent.
Not good.
And I meant that racing oils have no or not enough detergent to keep particles in suspension.
I'm inclined to believe that all this zinc talk applies more to high lift cams.
Not mushy old lifter pushers so much.
But I am of the better safe than sorry persuasion.
There for my Mobile 1 and STP routine. It's a gas engine, after all.
 
I think people get too worked-up about oil. Keep it clean, and don't worry about it. It you're running something really high RPM, hot, or some other non-standard usage....look into a performance oil. I've run my 10,000 rpm liter-bikes on about every type of oil there is. Other than being wet-clutch compatible....they all seem to have worked about the same. Mobile-1 did yield a couple mph in one bike, but that may have been a fluke. On the dyno, we could have used the oils the guys are using for shoot-out cars and gained 10-15 hp......but they are a 0-weight, and have no life[also slosh like water]. You can spend a lot of money for "peace of mind". But, I think there's a bunch of smoke and mirrors/bells and whistles in today's hobby.
 
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Zinc is no good for catylictic converters. Use it on old cars. Polyalpha-olephin is think is the term. Others start off with conventional dino materials.

Wow I stared something for sure!
Thanks for all the replies, I have been using Marvel for 30 years in the rebuild, I removed the valve covers one year after 45000 miles, and they were clean and had only a colored coating inside them, It was not like when I bought the car in 1980 and changed the valve cover gaskets, it had 76000 miles on the 318 before a rebuild at 110k., inside the covers were coated and dirty. older oil and poor maint. were the cause. I did call up Amzoil synthetic, they said to never use it in an older engine, the seals will leak, our older engines are coated after many years and run fine if you stick with 1040- 1030 and change it max of 2000 miles. A regular oil with zinc however is desirable, or use the Marvel. I will use the Purolator filters the ONE type no more fram filters I heard Wix are great too.. .It will be my first filter with an anti drain back so we will see after a down time than a cold start for any difference. The Marvel as usual with the 10w40, The Pur one is made in the USA check it out. Thanks for all the info!
 
I wrote that very badly.
I meant that oil rated for diesels has too much detergent. I guess that is possible.
Can't remember the exact reasons but it would at least be sacrificing oil for detergent.
Not good.
And I meant that racing oils have no or not enough detergent to keep particles in suspension.
I'm inclined to believe that all this zinc talk applies more to high lift cams.
Not mushy old lifter pushers so much.
But I am of the better safe than sorry persuasion.
There for my Mobile 1 and STP routine. It's a gas engine, after all.

All motor oils have ZDDP, just the newer specifications call for less. There are no hard and fast rules here or magic limits as no one is doing the appropriate testing to see exactly how much is needed for an old engine. I have been using 1200ppm zddp oil (0.12%) on my 71 383 HP with flat tapper .484 lift cam and it has survived. anecdotal evidence, and some will claim that it needs 0.2% zddp. Will it last 100k miles? don't know, I drive daily and it is still chugging. SN rated oils like mobil 1 and GM dexos rated oils are fantastic lubricants for modern gasoline engines, have extended drain intervals...and have limited zddp so me personally would not use them in a flat tappet engine. you can use them and add zinc but my preference is having it pre-blended. again this is my opinion only, we all have to make our own choices.

Disclaimer: I'm not an expert. Here is a good in-a-nutshell guide to API ratings and oil for old engines. not too much marketing slant except I will say that there are other choices besides Amsoil and rotella T. API SJ and SL are the older specifications that are still in use by lubricant companies.

http://opelclub.com/ZDDP2.pdf
 
That sounds logical - but how do you know you don't have oil pressure at start up? My car doesn't have an oil gauge - just the light. I can see where this could be a problem and would like to know as well.
a mechanical pressure gauge is the truth meter.
 
i talked to a Driven oil rep at the NSRA nationals earlier this month. the guy shed some light on the zinc issue. zinc and detergent additives seem to fight each other. zinc wants to stick to the metal surfaces while detergent wants to wipe it off. seems to be about a balance between the two. it's my understanding that 1000ppm of zinc is the minimum for flat tappets, but a high concentration of detergent might have an adverse effect on the zinc. i change the oil and filter on my old dodges at 1000 miles, sometimes less than that, or twice a year (which i always do). i do use rotella a lot with it's high zinc but rotella has high detergent content. my thoughts are that with the frequent changes i'm probably not getting into a zinc/detergent conflict. if someone is in doubt about this conflict and doesn't want to worry about it then maybe they should consider the Driven oils.
 
I remember back around 2000 a guy did a pretty exhaustive study of oil filters and he just totally trashed Fram filters. The big argument was the filter material works well, but the amount of material, and number of pleats, means it clogs up pretty quickly. The issue there being once a filter clogs it uses a bypass to allow oil to go directly through the filter without being filtered, and you have no idea this is happening.

His recommendation was Motorcraft filters and I use them on most of my cars.
 
Valvoline VR1 and Lucas TB zinc plus with K&N filter. Just had to replace cam and lifters that didn't play nice with each other. Problem was previous owner poorly installed new cam bearings and blocked about 30-40% of oil passages, so oil was not issue. Next change probably won't use the Lucas TB zinc plus. Have used WIX/Napa Gold filters and happy with both of those.

Been looking at the Lucas Hot Rod & Classic oil, but have not heard of anyone using it yet.
 
i talked to a Driven oil rep at the NSRA nationals earlier this month. the guy shed some light on the zinc issue. zinc and detergent additives seem to fight each other. zinc wants to stick to the metal surfaces while detergent wants to wipe it off. seems to be about a balance between the two. it's my understanding that 1000ppm of zinc is the minimum for flat tappets, but a high concentration of detergent might have an adverse effect on the zinc. i change the oil and filter on my old dodges at 1000 miles, sometimes less than that, or twice a year (which i always do). i do use rotella a lot with it's high zinc but rotella has high detergent content. my thoughts are that with the frequent changes i'm probably not getting into a zinc/detergent conflict. if someone is in doubt about this conflict and doesn't want to worry about it then maybe they should consider the Driven oils.

lewtot is spot on. I used to be a big user of the 15w-40 rotella T diesel (white bottle). I used it in everything from an old gen I small block chevy that wheezed above 4000rpm to a kawasaki zx-10R that had 170 horsepower and redlined at 12.5k rpm. on the bike I changed every 1000miles. I hated paying $$$ for specialty motorcycle oil so I used the rotella. most bike drivetrains have a wet clutch (oil sump is shared for both engine and transmission) so modern car "energy conserving" oils can make a motorcycle clutch slip, but the Rotella T was perfect. As Lew pointed out, the additive package can be problematic..like extra detergents in a diesel oil. VR-1 has a ton of ZDDP but limited additives because it is a racing oil, so probably should not be used for extended drain interval application.
 
lewtot is spot on. I used to be a big user of the 15w-40 rotella T diesel (white bottle). I used it in everything from an old gen I small block chevy that wheezed above 4000rpm to a kawasaki zx-10R that had 170 horsepower and redlined at 12.5k rpm. on the bike I changed every 1000miles. I hated paying $$$ for specialty motorcycle oil so I used the rotella. most bike drivetrains have a wet clutch (oil sump is shared for both engine and transmission) so modern car "energy conserving" oils can make a motorcycle clutch slip, but the Rotella T was perfect. As Lew pointed out, the additive package can be problematic..like extra detergents in a diesel oil. VR-1 has a ton of ZDDP but limited additives because it is a racing oil, so probably should not be used for extended drain interval application.
i think the additive package is the key to all motor oils. what's good for one engine may not be good for the another.
 
I'm lazy.
Is there some way to find out what zinc ppm is in these oils in question now without a lot of work?
I skimmed the article and I see a few API codes from 2006 and before.

API Oil Designation/Brand Year Zinc Phosphorous


SH 1996 0.130 0.120

SJ & SL 2001-04 0.110 0.100

SM 2005 0.087 0.080

Shell Rotella T 2006 0.140 0.130

Pennzoil 20W50 Racing 2006 0.196 0.180



I've got visions of buying a zinc additive.
Assuming it gives me the concentration in the bottle, I would have to do the math to figure out how much that would be in five quarts of oil.
And then I would have to know what was in my oil to begin with.
Sounds like work.
Actually, the only thing I'm really curious about is what oil do you use that you can say that you are using 1200ppm? (Out of the bottle?)
Is this on the containers somewhere. I've never looked.
I'd be surprised if the oil companies would tell us this.
STP says it has zinc.
I read the article's author as having some issue with the answer he got from STP.
(Follows)


What about STP


Oil Treatment?

STP (“Scientifically Treated

Petroleum”) is a well

known brand in the United

States with a long

automotive history.

The reference to ZDDP on

its label suggests that STP

(now owned by Clorox)

could be the most widely

distributed and the most

conveniently available additive.

Of STP’s Media Liaison/Technical

Advisor, OMC asked:

STP Oil Treatment claims on its label

that it ‘Contains ZDDP’, can you state

how much ZDDP is in your product?

STP Oil Treatment and STP 4 Cylinder

Oil Treatment contains 1 to 1.5% of the

ZDDP additive per bottle.

For clarification, if STP Oil Treatment

was to be added to 4 quarts of the standard

current grade SM engine oils,

which is regulated to 870 parts per million

ZDDP, can you tell me what the

overall ZDDP levels will be, and would

that level be safe for engines requiring

SE grade oils?

Response: Unfortunately, we do not have

that specification.

After this brief conversation speaking

with STP’s technical representative,

I regret to inform readers that I can

not endorse using STP (for ZDDP

additives) over other specialty products.




All motor oils have ZDDP, just the newer specifications call for less. There are no hard and fast rules here or magic limits as no one is doing the appropriate testing to see exactly how much is needed for an old engine. I have been using 1200ppm zddp oil (0.12%) on my 71 383 HP with flat tapper .484 lift cam and it has survived. anecdotal evidence, and some will claim that it needs 0.2% zddp. Will it last 100k miles? don't know, I drive daily and it is still chugging. SN rated oils like mobil 1 and GM dexos rated oils are fantastic lubricants for modern gasoline engines, have extended drain intervals...and have limited zddp so me personally would not use them in a flat tappet engine. you can use them and add zinc but my preference is having it pre-blended. again this is my opinion only, we all have to make our own choices.

Disclaimer: I'm not an expert. Here is a good in-a-nutshell guide to API ratings and oil for old engines. not too much marketing slant except I will say that there are other choices besides Amsoil and rotella T. API SJ and SL are the older specifications that are still in use by lubricant companies.

http://opelclub.com/ZDDP2.pdf
 
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the only way to know for sure is to use an analytical lab. the popular 3rd party testing lab is blackstone for UOA (used oil analysis) but there are others.

http://bobistheoilguy.com/used-oil-analysis-2/

It's not that expensive to do as they use pretty old equipment and are geared to our (non-corporate) budgets. The lab would test the oil for zinc using ICP which is an instrument for elemental analysis. Some oil nerds will test samples during use to determine at which point that oil change is "done". That's TMI for me and my warmed up stock 383 but if you really want to push extended oil change intervals then this is the way to go. Europeans really like 10k mile oil changes. For extended drain you worry about acid levels from combustion byproducts and all that, detergents to keep from forming sludge. if I had a big dollar 2nd gen hemi or wedge stroker then I would be more inclined to test. Otherwise it's just a guessing game. Formulations also change over time; the levels posted in that opel club PDF are from 2007.
 
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