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Well, I've had enough of this 440 Mystery Motor

Rebuild what I have or replace the engine for possible peace of mind?

  • Rebuild it - it'll be fine

    Votes: 25 83.3%

  • Replace it!

    Votes: 5 16.7%
  • Total voters
    30
kiwigtx said:
Is the problem as simple as this - the installer of the cam bearings was as similarly confused as to the cam bearing locations as the OP?
Thus not giving correct oil flow as pointed out above by @Challenger340
Click to expand...
Hey now, easy there Tiger - just because I didn't know what numbers referred to what bearing didn't mean I don't know which one distributes the oil. :)

Seriously, to answer your question....yes, that's my current theory as well, bad cam bearing install.
 
Beekeeper said:
Yep for 500 you could get the lifter bores bushed if needed. I'm bettin that the cam bearings were installed at a machine shop that builds Chevys :rofl:
Click to expand...
Here's the kicker - former owner (RIP)/supposed engine builder was a mechanic at a local Mopar dealer for decades.
Hey, all I can do is relay the stories told me, hence the "mystery" part. :)
 
Ski 61701 said:
That far right lifter bore looks funny to me. Looks like there are shiney spots almost as if the the bore itself wasnt honed when it was machined or maybe it was and now its oversized enough that the lifter is getting cocked in its travel. Is that one of the lifters that got munched with the old cam? I agree about the cam journal bearing looking so so . The bottom half of the bearing is going to have a little more wear on it due to the downward pressure of the lifters being pushed by valve springs. Ive seen worse and the valve train was ok not perfect but ok. Id start to really focus on lifter bores and lifter rotation when you start checking things
Click to expand...
Trying to remember now....
I posted what got eaten last time, seems like #3 intake and exhaust cam lobes on the previous cam?
Then the bent pushrod was on cylinder #8 intake with this cam...
and the noise I'm now hearing is toward the rear of the drivers' side, which I mistakenly thought at first was a header tick, but noooo....

Hey, see those little symbols cast above each lifter bore? Do they mean anything?
 
If I hit the powerball this eve Ed you aint going to have to worry about cam bearings ect.
Just have the cherry picker lined up with the shop door.
 
1967coronet said:
If I hit the powerball this eve Ed you aint going to have to worry about cam bearings ect.
Just have the cherry picker lined up with the shop door.
Click to expand...
Oh Lord. Bless you my friend. :lol:
 
Challenger340 said:
I don't think your goals in a 440 are far fetched ?
I own an original '69 Charger R/T SE, UN-rebuilt, UN-restored in exceptional original condition, with a factory, and again UN-touched original 440 Magnum in good shape.
I own a Performance Machine Shop and build Drag Engines, so I am NOT easily impressed, but I find the old girl moves along just fine, can boil the hides at will and pleases me when tasked ?
I could rebuild it as easy as childsplay if I wanted to ? but alas ...it is one of "those" a guy don't mess with... because even undoing the factory original Exhaust System still in place might change/damage some thing ?

Nonetheless,
regarding your 'mystery" gremlin Block, as I do this for a living, here are my thoughts.
Please Read....
#1: The Block Oiling Diagram is correct, just the flow arrows are back-asswards in places
#2 440 Mopar Wedges, same as HEMI's like it or not, do employ a version of Main Priority Oiling 60's style, in that the Oil Pump feeds first and foremost the Pass side Lifter Bank, which then directly supplies the Rifled drilled Main/Crank Bearings...... before then crossing Oil Flow equalization over to the Drivers side Lifter Bank at the rear of the Block cross-over, the Drivers side Lifter Bank Oil gallery then dead heading up front by the Dizzy. There is no cross-over of Lifter Bank Oiling at #1 Cam bearing.
The design is Simple, Efficient, and more than Adequate.

Cam bearing Holes on #1, 2, 3 and #5 Cam Bearings, do NOTHING except supply Cam Bearing Lube, except #4 Bearing that has 3 holes, 2 leading UP to feed the heads, and one supply from the Crank, wherein the Cam Journal itself is cross drilled to provide Oil UP through the Block Gallery to the Heads for the Rockers/Shafts as the cam rotates and aligns Oil Flow intermittently to each bank.
Lifters and Cam Lobes Oil strictly from Rod/Crank throw off and limited Oil leakage around the lifter Bore.

#3 One of the problem areas for Engine Block Oiling inspection...... when contemplating rebuilding with older high mileage Blocks, is to pay special attention to an area for inspection at the Lower Lifter Bores for wear, in the area between where the Lifter Oil Gallery intersects the Lifter Bore, and the actual "Bottom" of the bore.
It is an area of approx .375", which can be down to .275" to .300" for the poorer machined Lifter load/wear area on some of the early Blocks.
This small area to inspect for wear is on the outboard side of each Lifter Bore bank, and as the cam rotates clockwise from the front, concentrates Lifter Bore rotational load/wear primarily on the bottom of the drivers side Lifter Bore below the Lifter Oil gallery.
Excessive wear at that point in the Lifter Bore, causes lack of Lifter "rotation" due to Lifter slop during operation, critical to Flat tappet longevity.

I would invite anyone reading this, to go inspect any 383/440 Block Lifter Bores visually themselves, and LOOK for what I am referencing here.... BEFORE contemplating rebuild using Hydraulic Flat Tappets ?
LOOK for the "half moon" wear pattern on the bottom portion of the drivers side Lifter Bank Bores, directly below the Oil gallery to see what I am talking about ?
We don't worry about it on Solid Flat Tappet(order oversize Lifters and re-hone to correct the Bores) or Roller Competition Drag Engines, nonetheless, running anything in the way of a "Hydraulic" lifter ? IMO, just asking for trouble ?
Just my thoughts, no wars wanted.
Click to expand...
I do not doubt your knowledge and will start checking lifter bore closer. My question is if there is excess lifter bore wear at the bore bottoms would that not have an adverse afect on oil presure at idle? Next I have studied lifter oiling on different type of cams but with bushed bores on rollers cams how does the lifter get lubricated so it does not seeze in the bushing?
 
Ive had a couple of blocks bushed and there is a small hole 1/8 inch?? (I forget how big) drilled through the bushing into the oil galley. When ive primed the motor by hand there is more than enough oil which goes through the hole into the lifter there is even some oil that comes out around the lifter. I think the factory got carried away with the oem size hole for the lifters.
 
moparedtn said:
Trying to remember now....
I posted what got eaten last time, seems like #3 intake and exhaust cam lobes on the previous cam?
Then the bent pushrod was on cylinder #8 intake with this cam...
and the noise I'm now hearing is toward the rear of the drivers' side, which I mistakenly thought at first was a header tick, but noooo....

Hey, see those little symbols cast above each lifter bore? Do they mean anything?
Click to expand...

If memory serves me correctly, if that mark is diamond shape that meant the lifter bores were oversized at the factory and that assembly line workers were to install oversized lifters in the holes that were marked with a diamond. I remember yrs ago when working in a machine shop / auto parts store there was a different part # for the oversized lifters. Fast forward 30 yrs due to lack of demand no more oversized lifters. Hence me stating earlier to install a clean lifter in a clean bore and wiggle it rock it whatever you want to call it to check things out. I do not remember how big the oversized lifters were. You could be on to something here. I think current lifters are .903 dia, please correct me if I am wrong here.
 
Just sittin' back, and looking all this over...guessing there are too many 'ifs' tossed in the deal.

Just being honest here...'things' can happen on a build, even to an experienced builder.
There's always the chance, cam bearings were not fitted right during the build. The #4 cam bearing feeds oil through oil ports to your rocker arm shafts...the ONLY way they get oiled! If that bearing turned, or wasn't put in right, or the block wasn't cleaned right, guess what!
If the oil ports had junk in 'em, turns to crap real easy.

On those lifter bores...think they made +.001, +.002, and +.005 oversize lifters. Each lifter bore would need to be carefully measured, to find out, simply because even they can take wear. If wrong size lifters are put in...problems.

Think I recall you saying there was junk in the water jacket...right? If so, a good chance the oil ports were not cleaned either.

Just food for thought.
 
Ski 61701 said:
Ive had a couple of blocks bushed and there is a small hole 1/8 inch?? (I forget how big) drilled through the bushing into the oil galley. When ive primed the motor by hand there is more than enough oil which goes through the hole into the lifter there is even some oil that comes out around the lifter. I think the factory got carried away with the oem size hole for the lifters.
Click to expand...
...and perhaps not enough to other places, like the rockers?

I recall when I did the 906's recently that I actually ran a rod down through the two ports on each side of the heads that went up to the rockers.
I found it interesting that there are actually two ports "pods" in the block to match those, but only one is actually open to the head - the other one goes nowhere.
Wonder why those are there?
It's almost as if Ma planned on opening that one up in some applications?
 
Last edited:
Ski 61701 said:
If memory serves me correctly, if that mark is diamond shape that meant the lifter bores were oversized at the factory and that assembly line workers were to install oversized lifters in the holes that were marked with a diamond. I remember yrs ago when working in a machine shop / auto parts store there was a different part # for the oversized lifters. Fast forward 30 yrs due to lack of demand no more oversized lifters. Hence me stating earlier to install a clean lifter in a clean bore and wiggle it rock it whatever you want to call it to check things out. I do not remember how big the oversized lifters were. You could be on to something here. I think current lifters are .903 dia, please correct me if I am wrong here.
Click to expand...
Close...
.904 as sold on the parts sites.
 
miller said:
Just sittin' back, and looking all this over...guessing there are too many 'ifs' tossed in the deal.
Just being honest here...'things' can happen on a build, even to an experienced builder.
There's always the chance, cam bearings were not fitted right during the build. The #4 cam bearing feeds oil through oil ports to your rocker arm shafts...the ONLY way they get oiled! If that bearing turned, or wasn't put in right, or the block wasn't cleaned right, guess what!
If the oil ports had junk in 'em, turns to crap real easy.
On those lifter bores...think they made +.001, +.002, and +.005 oversize lifters. Each lifter bore would need to be carefully measured, to find out, simply because even they can take wear. If wrong size lifters are put in...problems.
Think I recall you saying there was junk in the water jacket...right? If so, a good chance the oil ports were not cleaned either.
Just food for thought.
Click to expand...
Thanks for getting in here, appreciated.
As far as the cooling jackets go, I don't recall solids being seen but the thing did take a LOT of flushing when I installed the radiator,etc. a while back before it ran clear.
I agree and I'm sticking with the cam bearings wrong/oiling ports clogged theory until something else proves that wrong.
 
moparedtn said:
...and perhaps not enough to other places, like the rockers?

I recall when I did the 906's recently that I actually ran a rod down through the two ports on each side of the block that lined up with the one that went up to the rockers.
I found it interesting that there are actually two ports drilled, but only one is actually open to the head - the other one bottoms out and goes nowhere.
Wonder why those are there?
Click to expand...

Was this with the cam in place when you were checking the hole with a rod?

If the cam bearing is installed correctly, two holes pointing up, the one hole is for the left bank, the other hole for the right bank. (Rocker assemblys)

With the cam installed, at top dead center, the oiling will pass through the holes in the cam, up through the block, into the head and to the rocker shaft. Turn the cam back 90*, or ahead 270* and the holes in the cam will direct the oil up through the right side of the block, through that head and into that rocker shaft. (If the cam has been degreed, then you'll have to add or subtract that amount to find the hole location.)
 
moparedtn said:
Because that's the common denominator in all this (and where the oil comes from to get to the valvetrain)?
Click to expand...
The factory set up sends MORE oil to the lifters than needed. Any old block could have excessive lifter bore wear. We will never know unless it is measured. In todays world a flat tappet camshaft install can be iffy. Suspect lifters (since OEM's haven't used any in years), suspect oil (same reason), worn lifter bores. The perfect fix? Costly lifter bushings and a roller cam. Necessary, not always. It is paramount that flat tappet lifters rotate. If they don't it WILL wipe the cam. So I will guess that the lifter bores were not measured, tappet rotation was not checked. Has the engine in question been diagnosed yet? A lot of speculation. Might not even be a cam issue. But before checking no one can say if the current block has any issues. Even if the lifter bores are worn some a roller will run. Again we need to measure.
Doug
 
Y'all are giving me some wild thoughts on testing (well, playing around with anyways) this thing as assembled now.
Tell me how this would or wouldn't work:

If a fella was to pull the intake, disconnect the ignition, pull the spark plugs and take the fuel line loose from the fuel pump....
then use the starter motor to turn the engine over, wouldn't I be able to observe (and video, of course) the oiling of the engine as it spins, including watching individual lifters for rotation and such?
 
Id think you'd run the risk of burning up the starter trying to check for lifter rotation. Youre going to have oil coming up and around the lifters and you might not see your witness marks on the lifters. Id get something like liquid paper and put it on the top of the lifter to aid in seeing if they rotate. As mentioned earlier be careful about burning out the starter if you do this
 
You could go in 10-30 sec bursts...I used a sharpie to mark my shortblock and lifters and could
see a visible rotation just cranking it by hand...
 
moparedtn said:
Y'all are giving me some wild thoughts on testing (well, playing around with anyways) this thing as assembled now.
Tell me how this would or wouldn't work:

If a fella was to pull the intake, disconnect the ignition, pull the spark plugs and take the fuel line loose from the fuel pump....
then use the starter motor to turn the engine over, wouldn't I be able to observe (and video, of course) the oiling of the engine as it spins, including watching individual lifters for rotation and such?
Click to expand...
IMO the starter will not turn the engine over the same RPM as an engine at idle. Therefore , you won't have enough oil pressure to do a proper test. Your method may work to check lifter rotation .....................................MO
 
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