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Starter problems on my 69 RR

jimm69

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I have a 69 RR that I just finished last summer. While over the winter, I developed an issue with my starter. Sometimes you will go to crank the engine and you will just get a clicking noise from either the starter or the relay. cant tell which. Sometimes it will just crank right over with no issues. Sometimes it will start cranking and the best way i can describe the sound is a grinding sound like turning the key too soon after letting off the key and not letting the starter wind down. It is like it is losing power in the middle of a cranking session and starting right back up and grinding because it started cranking before starter winding down. I pulled the battery out and had it tested and it tests good. Took starter out and had it tested and it tested good.
Relay is 6 months old. All cables and under hood wiring is 6 months old. I have double checked that my connections are all clean and tight. Does anyone have any suggestions for me to try?

thanks.

Jim
 
I have a 69 RR that I just finished last summer. While over the winter, I developed an issue with my starter. Sometimes you will go to crank the engine and you will just get a clicking noise from either the starter or the relay. cant tell which. Sometimes it will just crank right over with no issues. Sometimes it will start cranking and the best way i can describe the sound is a grinding sound like turning the key too soon after letting off the key and not letting the starter wind down. It is like it is losing power in the middle of a cranking session and starting right back up and grinding because it started cranking before starter winding down. I pulled the battery out and had it tested and it tests good. Took starter out and had it tested and it tested good.
Relay is 6 months old. All cables and under hood wiring is 6 months old. I have double checked that my connections are all clean and tight. Does anyone have any suggestions for me to try?

thanks.

Jim

Bench testing a starter is way different than when it's under load. When free-wheeling on a bench, the windings aren't under load and don't heat up. For sure your problem is the starter but exactly where inside is a good question. I suspect the contacts inside the starter solenoid are burnt or pitted. As soon as the solenoid throws the drive gear out, the contacts "make" to power up the main motor. "Hit and miss" tells me this is your problem, either that or you have arcing across the stator and possibly the armature. Worn or poorly seated brushes will cause the same issue. With starters, once they fail or become erratic, change them.
 
Bench testing a starter is way different than when it's under load. When free-wheeling on a bench, the windings aren't under load and don't heat up. For sure your problem is the starter but exactly where inside is a good question. I suspect the contacts inside the starter solenoid are burnt or pitted. As soon as the solenoid throws the drive gear out, the contacts "make" to power up the main motor. "Hit and miss" tells me this is your problem, either that or you have arcing across the stator and possibly the armature. Worn or poorly seated brushes will cause the same issue. With starters, once they fail or become erratic, change them.
Yahtzee....the starter is only 6 months old. I know that you can get bum parts brand new. guess i am in a catch 22. bought this starter at o'reilly auto parts and the first starter they replaced at 30 days. burned up on the start stand. then, the replaced it and it has lasted 6 months now. ran fine last summer with no issues. now trying to tune up for spring and issues galore. when the starter acts up, if i put the battery charger on it, it works just fine. just sounds like it is intermittently losing power or something. any suggestions to get the part store to replace it? they wont replace because they test it and say it checks out good. should i just eat this one and never to to oreillys again and just buy another one? just dont want to spend the money on another and have an issue. what do you think?
 
Since you say it works with a charger on it?????
Put a Fluke meter on the battery cable and to ground. Are you getting good voltage under load?
Look for a voltage drop.
Triple check your power connections. Any hidden corrosion under the lugs/terminals?
Jump the solenoid on the fender to be sure it's not something weird in the control side.
You say a starter "burned up" on you? Are you grinding the starters?
That's death to them. Overheating.
If your starter is getting good power at the STARTER lug, it's got to be the starter I'd say.
I would not fault O'Reilly's any more than any other parts store.
Yea, we get bad (rebuilt) parts.
But they have good stuff, selection and service compared to others IMO.
They can't know everything you are doing.
Worse case is you get another starter, have two good ones and a back up.
YEARS ago my wife bought a bad battery at Auto Zone.
I took it up there and they "tested" it.
It had a dead cell that didn't show up and I had to prove it to them.
It pissed me off and I didn't shop there for years.
Now I do what I have to to get stuff.
I like the manger there now and he does me right.
 
Since you say it works with a charger on it?????
Put a Fluke meter on the battery cable and to ground. Are you getting good voltage under load?
Look for a voltage drop.
Triple check your power connections. Any hidden corrosion under the lugs/terminals?
Jump the solenoid on the fender to be sure it's not something weird in the control side.
You say a starter "burned up" on you? Are you grinding the starters?
That's death to them. Overheating.
If your starter is getting good power at the STARTER lug, it's got to be the starter I'd say.
I would not fault O'Reilly's any more than any other parts store.
Yea, we get bad (rebuilt) parts.
But they have good stuff, selection and service compared to others IMO.
They can't know everything you are doing.
Worse case is you get another starter, have two good ones and a back up.
YEARS ago my wife bought a bad battery at Auto Zone.
I took it up there and they "tested" it.
It had a dead cell that didn't show up and I had to prove it to them.
It pissed me off and I didn't shop there for years.
Now I do what I have to to get stuff.
I like the manger there now and he does me right.
onlyone....what is a fluke meter? something i can get at harbor freight?

I have double and triple checked all connections. everything is new last summer. no corrosion whatsoever.

the one that burned up started smoking while motor was on start stand. no, definitely not grinding it. always wait for starter to wind down before engaging again. what this starter is doing is while cranking, it seems like it loses power and then starts to grind like when you do not let a starter completely wind down before engaging it again. it is like it is temporarily losing power then coming right back on.

i have tried jumping across the relay on the firewall and it acts the same as when i use the key. i tried that to eliminate any problem with wiring inside the car.

the car always cranks with the battery charger. i can not recall if the intermittent grinding happens with the battery charger, but I am pretty sure it does.
 
It sounds like the battery not holding a charge or your charging system is not working properly.
Get out a volt meter and do a few tests....So you can see what direction of troubleshooting....
Car off Battery 12volts...
Car running ...14.2 to 13.8 anything less , charging system not working , bad grounds at block/battery to voltage reg. possible voltage drop....
 
have you tried a different battery?
are all your grounds tight,body/engine?
i have not tried another battery, but did take the battery back to parts store and they tested it and said it was good.

yes, have checked and double checked body and chassis grounds. all good
 
i have not tried another battery, but did take the battery back to parts store and they tested it and said it was good.

yes, have checked and double checked body and chassis grounds. all good

Do not believe Part stores analysis... the get step is to see if you charging system is working..
 
It sounds like the battery not holding a charge or your charging system is not working properly.
Get out a volt meter and do a few tests....So you can see what direction of troubleshooting....
Car off Battery 12volts...
Car running ...14.2 to 13.8 anything less , charging system not working , bad grounds at block/battery to voltage reg. possible voltage drop....
battery is holding at about 12.5 volts and when the car is running, charging just a little over 14

i have a ground from the battery to block and the firewall to the block. both are good.
 
I would check all wires from battery to relay then to starter...
Here's a little information that may be helpful...




Starter Diagnosis

BATTERY TESTING
Neither the starter, nor alternator will function properly if the battery is low or worn out. Average battery life under the best circumstances is four to five years, and is as low as three years in really hot climates.

A fully charged battery should read 12.66 volts with the key off and no electrical load on the battery. A reading of less than 12.45 volts at the battery means the battery is low (less than 75% charged) and needs to be recharged.

If the charging system is functioning normally, but the battery fails to hold a charge, it may mean your battery has reached the end of its service life and needs to be replaced. Load testing a battery or using an electronic tester to test the battery's amp capacity should reveal the health of the battery. If the battery tests okay, the battery may be running down because of a parasitic electrical load. A trunk light that remains on, a relay that remains energized, etc, can all create a steady drain on the battery that will run it down.

If you need a new battery, the replacement battery must have an amp capacity that equals or exceeds the OEM cold cranking amp (CCA) requirements. The group size (height, width and length) must also fit the battery tray in the vehicle, and the posts must have the same configuration.

The battery cables should be cleaned and inspected or replaced if found to be badly corroded, loose or damaged. Installing chemically treated anti-corrosion felt washers under the battery cables will help keep the connections corrosion-free.
 
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I had the same exact problem after rebuilding my engine. Had a new starter but just clicked, went and bought another and did the same thing. Battery was good. Voltages were good all the way down to the alternator. Put a jumper wire straight from positive terminal to lug on starter and it turned over ! Turned out the brand new battery cable was corroded where it was molded in the terminal. Replaced terminal and been good ever since. Voltage was good, current flow was **** !
 
Toss in a late model mini starter and be done with it.
 
Usually, when the starter is cranking the engine, it will draw approximately 400 amps (more when the engine is cold). The battery voltage should not be less than 10 volts, measured at the terminals. If the battery cannot maintain 10 volts under load, it usually indicates the internal resistance is higher than normal meaning a cell is sulfated. Another possible problem is the starter motor's armature has a shorted winding, causing excessive voltage drop (internal).
If the starter is going to be replaced, consider a "mini" type as it provide greater torque with less voltage drop, because it is a permanent magnet motor...no wired field coils, just permanent magnets..and it generally draws less current than the oem mopar starter while cranking the engine. Since its mounted low on the engine, you cannot tell (almost) that it is not orihinal. This is what I use on my GTX, RS23V0A......, with 11:1 pistons.
Most "rebuilt" starters just get new brushes, starter drive, lube, and paint but not new field coils or an armature....same for alternators....not everything is replaced...only what the rebuilder can get away with. For my money, I'll do my own rebuilding.....to original Mopar specs with Mopar parts. I'm a skeptic......
Bob Renton
 
I had the same exact problem after rebuilding my engine. Had a new starter but just clicked, went and bought another and did the same thing. Battery was good. Voltages were good all the way down to the alternator. Put a jumper wire straight from positive terminal to lug on starter and it turned over ! Turned out the brand new battery cable was corroded where it was molded in the terminal. Replaced terminal and been good ever since. Voltage was good, current flow was **** !
I had the exact same thing happen to me. Try to start and just get click. Got the meter out and 12V from switch to relay. 12V from relay to starter. 12v+ on battery. Replaced battery. No change. Replaced relay. No change. Replaced starter. No change. (Auto parts store said both tested bad.) Ran jumper cable from battery to starter. Started right up. Pos cable end looked perfect but new cable end solved problem. Cable was only a year old.
 
I had the exact same thing happen to me. Try to start and just get click. Got the meter out and 12V from switch to relay. 12V from relay to starter. 12v+ on battery. Replaced battery. No change. Replaced relay. No change. Replaced starter. No change. (Auto parts store said both tested bad.) Ran jumper cable from battery to starter. Started right up. Pos cable end looked perfect but new cable end solved problem. Cable was only a year old.
Glad to see I wasn't alone on this one ! My cable was made by goodmark, and roughly a year old. Here's a picture of the terminal after I cut it open to investigate ...

20170509_065915.jpg
 
onlyone....what is a fluke meter? something i can get at harbor freight?

I have double and triple checked all connections. everything is new last summer. no corrosion whatsoever.

the one that burned up started smoking while motor was on start stand. no, definitely not grinding it. always wait for starter to wind down before engaging again. what this starter is doing is while cranking, it seems like it loses power and then starts to grind like when you do not let a starter completely wind down before engaging it again. it is like it is temporarily losing power then coming right back on.

i have tried jumping across the relay on the firewall and it acts the same as when i use the key. i tried that to eliminate any problem with wiring inside the car.

the car always cranks with the battery charger. i can not recall if the intermittent grinding happens with the battery charger, but I am pretty sure it does.

Sorry for any confusion.
You probably figured it out from other post or a google.
It's sort of a generic term for a volt meter.
Kleenex.
My intent was to start high and work low. The easy way.
Put it right on the battery and check the cranking voltage.
Then do the hard part right at the starter.
Just a quick and dirty check of what voltage the battery is holding while cranking.


83v-01a-600x402.jpg
 
A FLUKE digital volt meter is a precision instrument, capable of accurate readings. Some models have accessories that can be added for versatily. These cost in the neighborhood of $250-300 .... well woth the cost. Google FLUKE.COM to see what they offer.
Bob Renton
 
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