runner74
Well-Known Member
Are these any good? Again not looking for a barn burner just want her to run good. Sealed power KC661 and Yearone MP31 I assume could be installed without changing push rods or springs correct?
Cam recomendation
- Thread starter runner74
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451Mopar
Well-Known Member
I would get the lifters from the same place you get the cam. Really not that much difference in cost.
The Hughes Cam and Lifters are ($165 cam + (5.55 lifter * 16)) = $253.80
The Comp CL21-222-4 cam and liter "kit" is $235.11 from Comp. Summit lists the kit a bit cheaper @ $220.65.
The valve springs are both about $91-$92 for either cam. The basic spring specs your looking for is 130psi @ 1.88" closed, and about 303 to 309 at 0.500" lift.
I'm not sure what options you are getting with the AeroHead heads besides the larger valves?
rumblefish360
Well-Known Member
@451Mopar The aero heads as I remember them are basic rebuilds with the larger valves. I do not remember hearing trick valve job or bowl work done.
451Mopar
Well-Known Member
Did the heads get the hardened seats?
Can you ask them the valve spring pressures or what valve springs they are using?
Do you plan to open up the bowl area under the valves?
For the pushrods, it would be best to measure for the correct length once the engine is assembled.
FWIW, the cylinder heads on my 360 are from Aerohead. Got them with the 2.02"/1.60" valves and hardened seats. I then opened up the bowls and did some porting on them, and they have been performing good.
Can you ask them the valve spring pressures or what valve springs they are using?
Do you plan to open up the bowl area under the valves?
For the pushrods, it would be best to measure for the correct length once the engine is assembled.
FWIW, the cylinder heads on my 360 are from Aerohead. Got them with the 2.02"/1.60" valves and hardened seats. I then opened up the bowls and did some porting on them, and they have been performing good.
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runner74
Well-Known Member
Yes they are getting the hardened seats and larger valves 2.14 x 1.81.
Wasn't planning on opening the bowl area. I am new to this (My first tear down) Just want to get her up and running. What cam's would fit in without changing springs and rods? Would the Yearone MP31, or Sealed power CS-661 go right in as a stock replacement?
Wasn't planning on opening the bowl area. I am new to this (My first tear down) Just want to get her up and running. What cam's would fit in without changing springs and rods? Would the Yearone MP31, or Sealed power CS-661 go right in as a stock replacement?
Triple Black 73
Well-Known Member
I'm happy with the massive amount of low end torque of the CompCAM XE256 that I put in my low compression (8.5:1) 383. The XE260 moves the RPM range up a little more and the XE268 is like the factory magnum cam with a 110 LSA instead of the old 115 LSA. The lower LSA number increases the dynamic compression by closing the valve sooner which make more power. I was told anything bigger than 268 will require at least 9:1 compression and an aftermarket stall converter.
I also recommend spending extra on a complete cam kit (timing gear, lifters, springs, seats, etc) and some spring shims. The cam kit makes installation way simpler and gives you a piece of mind. The timing gear I got was 2 degrees advanced which worked perfectly with the cam. The 45 year old factory valve springs we initially put in the 383 were completely worn out. Cylinder #5 was leaking out the exhaust at just 120 psi. New springs at the right height fixed this problem. Spring shims are important to the the valve height the same so the seat pressure are the same across all cylinder thus all the compression is the same. I now have 165 psi in all the cylinders. You'll need 1.580 OD and 1" ID shims for factory heads.
I also recommend spending extra on a complete cam kit (timing gear, lifters, springs, seats, etc) and some spring shims. The cam kit makes installation way simpler and gives you a piece of mind. The timing gear I got was 2 degrees advanced which worked perfectly with the cam. The 45 year old factory valve springs we initially put in the 383 were completely worn out. Cylinder #5 was leaking out the exhaust at just 120 psi. New springs at the right height fixed this problem. Spring shims are important to the the valve height the same so the seat pressure are the same across all cylinder thus all the compression is the same. I now have 165 psi in all the cylinders. You'll need 1.580 OD and 1" ID shims for factory heads.
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Triple Black 73
Well-Known Member
I installed a CS-661 in my 383. The lift is 0.449/0.464 inches, the 0.050 lift duration is 218, but the 0.003 lift duration is 292 and the LSA is 115. I calculated the dynamic compression at less than 6 to 1. The cam also pulled just 5 inches of vacuum at 900 rpms! Don't get me wrong, it sounds great, but you'll need 9.5:1 or more run it. You'll need to install it 4 degrees advance at the crank.
rumblefish360
Well-Known Member
IF this engine is ment for an absolute driver, I favor cam duration @.050 @ no more than 218. This is about as big as you can go on the stock converter. The power band (torque) starts right up after idle and works well (HP) to 5000/5500. It'll be fine with low static compression up to 9.0-1-ish and most gear ratios as long as the tire doesn't get big. Real nice torque, favorable HP and reasonable mileage is the return.
Comp Cams, Lunati, etc. all have Cams of this size and style. Lift need not be high.
Comp Cams, Lunati, etc. all have Cams of this size and style. Lift need not be high.
451Mopar
Well-Known Member
You might be Ok running the springs that come with the heads. I think the Aerohead springs say they work with a 0.509" cam? That is pretty vague, but if they are refering to the Mopar 292/0.509" cam then should be pretty close to what the other cams listed here recommend.
The stock pushrods likely will be OK, but you need to check them for proper lifter pre-load.
Do you have anyone who can help you degree the cam and measure the pushrod lengths? If there is a car club in your area, usually members are willing to help out.
A big part of having a good running engine has to do with installing everything correctly and tuning the ignition timing and Carb (or EFI)
With any of these flat tappet (non-roller) cams, you will want to break in the cam with a high ZDDP oil and ZDDP oil additive, or maybe just get the Joe Gibbs Break-in oil?
The stock pushrods likely will be OK, but you need to check them for proper lifter pre-load.
Do you have anyone who can help you degree the cam and measure the pushrod lengths? If there is a car club in your area, usually members are willing to help out.
A big part of having a good running engine has to do with installing everything correctly and tuning the ignition timing and Carb (or EFI)
With any of these flat tappet (non-roller) cams, you will want to break in the cam with a high ZDDP oil and ZDDP oil additive, or maybe just get the Joe Gibbs Break-in oil?
Triple Black 73
Well-Known Member
Everyone wants to suggest things that make big power from stock engine, because it's easy and fun to do. But he wants a cruiser. He needs low end torque not high end horsepower.
Big cams ruins daily driveability and blows engine up. More duration, bigger the cam. The biggest the cam, lower the vacuum. Low vacuum means no power brakes and AC. Big cam also need to rev to make power. Big cams don't like to idle below 900 rpms. On top of all this, forty five year old engines parts don't like to spin at 5k rpms.
If he's like me, he wants to hit the go pedal to get up to speed without a lot of drama. My Charger went 0 to 60 in under 7 seconds at part throttle with a carb that's running rich and 2.73 gears. That's torque, buddy. A lot of torque. The Charger makes my Ram 2500 feel ball less. The CompCam CamQuest tool says the XE256H in the low compression and otherwise stock 383 would make about 460 pounds of torque at 2k rpm. Sure the estimated horsepower is 320 at 4,500 but the crossover point is 5252 rpms, so wank wank. I thought CompCam was overestimating the torque but after driving it, I believe them.
TL;DR: Big cams aren't all they are cracked up to be. Cylinder pressure is what makes power.
Big cams ruins daily driveability and blows engine up. More duration, bigger the cam. The biggest the cam, lower the vacuum. Low vacuum means no power brakes and AC. Big cam also need to rev to make power. Big cams don't like to idle below 900 rpms. On top of all this, forty five year old engines parts don't like to spin at 5k rpms.
If he's like me, he wants to hit the go pedal to get up to speed without a lot of drama. My Charger went 0 to 60 in under 7 seconds at part throttle with a carb that's running rich and 2.73 gears. That's torque, buddy. A lot of torque. The Charger makes my Ram 2500 feel ball less. The CompCam CamQuest tool says the XE256H in the low compression and otherwise stock 383 would make about 460 pounds of torque at 2k rpm. Sure the estimated horsepower is 320 at 4,500 but the crossover point is 5252 rpms, so wank wank. I thought CompCam was overestimating the torque but after driving it, I believe them.
TL;DR: Big cams aren't all they are cracked up to be. Cylinder pressure is what makes power.
451Mopar
Well-Known Member
Triple Black, I hope you did not think I was suggesting using the 292/0.509" cam? I was referencing the valve springs AeroHead might be using, and that the "valve springs" should be good for the smaller camshafts we were discussing earlier.
I suggested the Hughes Engines SEH1620BL-12 cam, 216/220 duration @ 0.050", 0.495"/0.503" lift, 112 LSA. This cam is a bit more expensive, and is a high rate of lift cam, so it makes really good torque. If there is a possible down side beside the cost, With the high rate of lift cams (Hughes, Comp XE, and others) it is you have to run good high ZPPD oil, and I would recommend it even for the more stock type (lower lift) cams like the Sealed Power KC661 (214/[email protected]", 0.449"/0.464" lift 115 lsa) I think this is a the replacement for the factory high performance 4bbl cam? The KC661 is listed on Rock Auto for $223 (cam and lifter kit).
Really, it would be an OK choice if you are trying to save a few bucks.
While I was looking on Rock Auto, I checked what they listed for the stock 2bbl camshaft so you have the specs for comparison. The Sealed power KC327 cam specs are 206/209@ 0.050" duration, 0.434"/0.431" lift, 113 LSA. it costs $209 (cam and lifter kit.)
I decided to look at the Crower offerings, and the #32240 "Power Compu-Pro" 212/218@ 0.050", 0.456"/0.477", 112 LSA would work too, but costs $163 (cam only)
I also like the Lunati Voodoo cams, but they are setup for the 3-bolt timing gear set. The 10230701LK kit is 213/220@ 0.050", 0.454"/0.475" lift, 112 LSA. This looks to be the least expensive cam/lifter kit at only $208, but you have to use the 3-bolt timing set.
Lunati also has the High Efficiency 10210241LK cam (single bolt timing set) that is 216/228@ 0.050", 0.454"/0.480" lift, 112 LSA , same $208 price point for the kit?
As you can see most of these cams are fairly close in duration. The Hughes does offer more valve lift (higher rate of lift), so even though the 0.050" durations may seem close, the durations at points above 0.050", like 0.200" and above might actually be larger duration than a cam with slightly more duration at 0.050", but less lift (slower rate of lift.) This is why roller cams are so popular, they offer much higher rate-of-lift than is possible with a flat tappet cam.
I suggested the Hughes Engines SEH1620BL-12 cam, 216/220 duration @ 0.050", 0.495"/0.503" lift, 112 LSA. This cam is a bit more expensive, and is a high rate of lift cam, so it makes really good torque. If there is a possible down side beside the cost, With the high rate of lift cams (Hughes, Comp XE, and others) it is you have to run good high ZPPD oil, and I would recommend it even for the more stock type (lower lift) cams like the Sealed Power KC661 (214/[email protected]", 0.449"/0.464" lift 115 lsa) I think this is a the replacement for the factory high performance 4bbl cam? The KC661 is listed on Rock Auto for $223 (cam and lifter kit).
Really, it would be an OK choice if you are trying to save a few bucks.
While I was looking on Rock Auto, I checked what they listed for the stock 2bbl camshaft so you have the specs for comparison. The Sealed power KC327 cam specs are 206/209@ 0.050" duration, 0.434"/0.431" lift, 113 LSA. it costs $209 (cam and lifter kit.)
I decided to look at the Crower offerings, and the #32240 "Power Compu-Pro" 212/218@ 0.050", 0.456"/0.477", 112 LSA would work too, but costs $163 (cam only)
I also like the Lunati Voodoo cams, but they are setup for the 3-bolt timing gear set. The 10230701LK kit is 213/220@ 0.050", 0.454"/0.475" lift, 112 LSA. This looks to be the least expensive cam/lifter kit at only $208, but you have to use the 3-bolt timing set.
Lunati also has the High Efficiency 10210241LK cam (single bolt timing set) that is 216/228@ 0.050", 0.454"/0.480" lift, 112 LSA , same $208 price point for the kit?
As you can see most of these cams are fairly close in duration. The Hughes does offer more valve lift (higher rate of lift), so even though the 0.050" durations may seem close, the durations at points above 0.050", like 0.200" and above might actually be larger duration than a cam with slightly more duration at 0.050", but less lift (slower rate of lift.) This is why roller cams are so popular, they offer much higher rate-of-lift than is possible with a flat tappet cam.
rumblefish360
Well-Known Member
It like the Lunati 10210241LK.
That will work excellent, IMO.
It's very similar to a Crane I ran in a small block.
That will work excellent, IMO.
It's very similar to a Crane I ran in a small block.
comp 268 h a good "all-rounder "
runner74
Well-Known Member
I know some of you wont like this but I purchased the KC661 kit. I Know I know. It mimic's the original.
Cam Lift Exhaust (Inch) 0.3090
Cam Lift Intake (Inch) 0.2990
Cam Series Pro-3000
Cam Type Hydraulic
Duration @ .006 Lift 292/309
Duration @ .050 Lift 214/225
Engine Family Big Block
Exhaust Duration 225
Exhaust Lift (Inch) 0.4640
Exhaust Lift (MM) 7.849
Exhaust Valve Lift 1 (MM) 11.786
Footnote Code (050) Duration at .050 Lobe Lift
Intake Duration 214
Intake Lift (Inch) 0.4490
Intake Lift (MM) 7.595
Intake Lobe Center 110
Intake Valve Lift 1 (MM) 11.405
Lobe Separation 115
Manufacturer Chrysler
Overlap 46
Thanks again for all of your input.
Cam Lift Exhaust (Inch) 0.3090
Cam Lift Intake (Inch) 0.2990
Cam Series Pro-3000
Cam Type Hydraulic
Duration @ .006 Lift 292/309
Duration @ .050 Lift 214/225
Engine Family Big Block
Exhaust Duration 225
Exhaust Lift (Inch) 0.4640
Exhaust Lift (MM) 7.849
Exhaust Valve Lift 1 (MM) 11.786
Footnote Code (050) Duration at .050 Lobe Lift
Intake Duration 214
Intake Lift (Inch) 0.4490
Intake Lift (MM) 7.595
Intake Lobe Center 110
Intake Valve Lift 1 (MM) 11.405
Lobe Separation 115
Manufacturer Chrysler
Overlap 46
Thanks again for all of your input.
451Mopar
Well-Known Member
It's not a bad choice for what your working with. The wide 115 LSA really reduces overlap so it should idle nice. I notice they recommend 110 degrees installed intake center line (a bit more advanced than the stock 113 ICL.) really, slightly more advanced (108 ICL) would be good.
The "Advertised Duration" of 292/309 @ 0.006" looks way off? I would think this is closer to the duration @ 0.002"?
Most cams with 292 duration @ 0.006" have over 240 duration @ 0.050", and much tighter lobe separation angles.
Nacho-RT74
Well-Known Member
On a bit off topic question
What happened with the Bob Kardashian camshaft? Maybe that was a good option but unkown specs on them
What happened with the Bob Kardashian camshaft? Maybe that was a good option but unkown specs on them
451Mopar
Well-Known Member
The Mr six pack cam requires the comp 911 springs. Is supposed to be 116 LSA, high rate of lift cam with near stock max lift? The install sheet recommends intake install center line based on gear ratio. I'd assume it is designed for 6-pack spec compression ratios around 10:1 compression?
I have no idea what they cost??
I'm sure some engine builder has measured the specs (I haven't had one), but If I had, I would not reveal the specs without permission.
Triple Black 73
Well-Known Member
Hmmm, maybe I should sell my CS-661 cam? Anyways, I swapped the CS-661 for the XE256H.
451Mopar
Well-Known Member
Please, more detail on before and after swapping the cam.
I find these threads entertaining as many recommend some part with no context to the entire combination and application.
Triple Black 73
Well-Known Member
The 661 spec cams was used in 383 and 440 magnums with 9.5:1 compression ratio and 78.5cc heads.
We had problems because we put pistons in the 383 that was 0.090 in the hole with 84cc heads and a 0.054 gasket. This gave us a static compression of less than 8:1. Dynamic compression with the 661 cam was less than 6:1! We measured cranking pressure at 110 to 130 psi. The issue was compounded with old weak spring and extra tall spring install heights. It was a mess.
We swapped the cam for a CE256H and new springs. The gasket was replaced with a Mopar steel shim with a compression height of just 0.014". This increased the compression ratio to 8.7:1. After the cam and springs swap we measured 165 psi in all cylinders.
Btw, stock 346 Mopar heads need to be shaved 0.004" on the face and 0.012" on the intake side to reduce volume by 1cc.
The XE256 cam is a low rev torque monster but falls off over 4500 rpm. The XE268H would have been a better choice. However, the pistons we used are junk and would blow up if revved over 5k, so the XE256 was the better choice for my setup.
I hope this helps.
We had problems because we put pistons in the 383 that was 0.090 in the hole with 84cc heads and a 0.054 gasket. This gave us a static compression of less than 8:1. Dynamic compression with the 661 cam was less than 6:1! We measured cranking pressure at 110 to 130 psi. The issue was compounded with old weak spring and extra tall spring install heights. It was a mess.
We swapped the cam for a CE256H and new springs. The gasket was replaced with a Mopar steel shim with a compression height of just 0.014". This increased the compression ratio to 8.7:1. After the cam and springs swap we measured 165 psi in all cylinders.
Btw, stock 346 Mopar heads need to be shaved 0.004" on the face and 0.012" on the intake side to reduce volume by 1cc.
The XE256 cam is a low rev torque monster but falls off over 4500 rpm. The XE268H would have been a better choice. However, the pistons we used are junk and would blow up if revved over 5k, so the XE256 was the better choice for my setup.
I hope this helps.
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