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66 Satellite -- No Spark -- Help!!!

R

rrchief67

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Car is a 4-speed manual with rebuilt 383. Week and a half ago on a Thursday, with the gas tank nearly empty, I backed the car out of an open carport to wash the dust off. It cranked right away, easily. After washing (including a light spray of fenders under the hood, but not on the engine or firewall), it cranked right up and I put it back in the carport.

On the following Monday, I added a gallon and a half of fresh gas and tried to crank it. It wound and wound but never fired. Checked the coil with a multimeter and the negative side was bad, so I bought a new coil, -- and a new coil wire, just in case. Plug wires are not new but are in good shape.

The new coil checked out with correct specs on the multimeter before installation, as did the resistance in both the old and new coil wires.

With the key on, I'm reading 12.4 volts on the positive post of the coil, about 8.6 on the negative side, and about 12.4 on the distributor end of the coil, plugged into the distributor but not into the distributor. Still won't fire.


There is no spark at the plug. I'm assuming (always a bad thing) it must be the distributor or the electronic ignition, but before I spend more money, I would appreciate further troubleshooting suggestions -- and instructions on what and where else I need to check for voltage and/or ohms, and what the readings should be.

I'm baffled because it cranked like a new one that Thursday, and four days later -- all the time plugged into Battery Tender to make sure the charge was up to par -- it would not fire at all. there appears to be sufficient voltage up to the coil wire, but for some reason it's not getting to the plugs. Would appreciate any and all suggestions. I'm learning as I go here, so forgive me if I've overlooked something that should be obvious.
 
You may have got water on ballast resistor and it shorted out, doesn't take much. But, it should try to run until you let off the ignition. Bad ground on ecu?
 
No moisture inside distributor cap. Clean and dry. I was careful with the water under the hood (been there, made that mistake before) so I'm about certain that water nor dampness is the problem.

Ballast resistor was removed when the electronic ignition was installed.

Voltage is correct from the battery into the coil, and the coil tests to correct specs, so I'm convinced the problem is somewhere between the negative side of the coil and the plugs. I just don't know what to check, other than visual inspection of distributor cap and rotor, and all that looks OK.

Haven't found a short in the ECU -- it's the Mopar high-rev hot spark ignition module (7500 RPM capable). And if it is shorted to ground, I couldn't be getting 12.5 volts at the positive terminal on the coil, could I?
 
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does the altenator have its own little electric pack inside?
 
OK, there was an electronic ignition trick I used to do long ago, but the details are fuzzy now.
1. Grounding an extra spark plug on the block in any ignition wire, have a friend crank the motor. If no spark...
2. Disconnect distributor side of coil/distributor ignition wire, put a small phillips screwdriver inside the coil wire & place the screwdriver very close (1/8" or less) away from a good ground. Unplug the double distributor wire. Turn key to "on". Ground the exposed wire of the double distributor wire briefly and the coil should fire a spark from your screwdriver. If it DOES, then the problem is inside the distributor (cap/rotor/pickup), if it does NOT, then it's a problem "upstream" like the coil/ignition box/ballast (which you don't have) or wiring & the distributor is likely all good.

Anyone who remembers this better than I do, please jump in.
 
Jockeying cars around is hard on them. I avoid it if at all possible. I know sometimes you can't.
Drive it at least 30 minutes. Top off fuel at a high volume station. This works for me to keep reliability up. Drove mine to work today just because I can. Regular exercise to full warm up.
Boils out the contaminants and dries everything out too after a bath.
 
Ok , if the coil is good here's what to do . You said you have at least 12v to the + side of coil, take a spark plug and ground it near the coil (bolt a spark plug to the engine with vise grips ) , leave the coil wire in the coil and install the other end to the plug. remove wire from - side of coil , take jumper wire and put one end on the neg. side of the coil . dab the other side of jumper wire to good ground intermittently with the key on, the plug should fire . My opinion of what wrong is that the coil is not being triggered to fire. It's either in the distributor (reluctor or gap) or the ECM is bad . if that don't work , take a jumper wire from pos of battery to pos on coil , that will eliminate all the other wireing like to the ignition switch etc and wires going through the fire wall bulkhead connector . If it starts , well you know the ignition system is ok and all you have to do is find why you have no voltage when the key is in the start position . ballast resistor has nothing to do with starting. BTW MAKE SURE YOUR SHIFT IS IN NEUTRAL AND HAND BRAKE IS ON !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
 
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Could be the pickup in the dist also. When they go they just go.
 
Answer to the first question/suggestion is no -- there is no separate electric pack inside the alternator.

Lots of other good info -- thank y'all. I'll report back once I have time tonight or tomorrow to run through all the suggestions and check them out on the car.
 
I know I will get crap from this but a quick check of the system except the dist is to quickly jump the plug from the dist together (like real quick) and see if the coil sparks, seriously it works.
 
Sounds to me like distributor pickup or ignition box... a basic test on your distributor pick-up coil is to unplug the two wires coming out of the distributor, and put an ohmmeter across them... Should read somewhere between 150 to 900 ohms, and if you check each wire individually to ground, it should give you an infinite or open reading(no numbers) I would also check the air gap inside your distributor pickup(spec .008-.018, use a brass feeler!) if this comes loose and gets out of adjustment it will cause no start condition. You didn't specify, but I'm assuming standard MP electronic ignition box and distributor? I hate to throw money at stuff hoping for a fix BUT you might get a cheap replacement ECU and if it doesn't fix it, always a good thing to carry as a spare....
 
QUOTE: "I'm assuming standard MP electronic ignition box and distributor?"

I think so, but I'm learning as I go here, so I'm not sure. I didn't install it -- the guy who rebuilt the engine did -- and there's no manufacturer's name or part number in sight. I'm not sure this will tell you anything, but the ignition box is bolted to the firewall and it looks like the picture below. The distributor looks just like the stock distributor that was original to the car.

images?q=tbn:ANd9GcReo5-GU3lBaqFvUr2ZwFORzMJoBhqqx9b0f8iyzoVMBwU6cAbn.jpg
 
rrchief67 said:
QUOTE: "I'm assuming standard MP electronic ignition box and distributor?"

I think so, but I'm learning as I go here, so I'm not sure. I didn't install it -- the guy who rebuilt the engine did -- and there's no manufacturer's name or part number in sight. I'm not sure this will tell you anything, but the ignition box is bolted to the firewall and it looks like the picture below. The distributor looks just like the stock distributor that was original to the car.

View attachment 511256
Click to expand...
Yep that's the stock-style unit
 
rrchief67 deleted a message here because it was inadvertently repeated below -- see Message #17.
 
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mopar_man said:
Ok , if the coil is good here's what to do . You said you have at least 12v to the + side of coil, take a spark plug and ground it near the coil (bolt a spark plug to the engine with vise grips ) , leave the coil wire in the coil and install the other end to the plug. remove wire from - side of coil , take jumper wire and put one end on the neg. side of the coil . dab the other side of jumper wire to good ground intermittently with the key on, the plug should fire . My opinion of what wrong is that the coil is not being triggered to fire. It's either in the distributor (reluctor or gap) or the ECM is bad . if that don't work , take a jumper wire from pos of battery to pos on coil , that will eliminate all the other wireing like to the ignition switch etc and wires going through the fire wall bulkhead connector . If it starts , well you know the ignition system is ok and all you have to do is find why you have no voltage when the key is in the start position . ballast resistor has nothing to do with starting. BTW MAKE SURE YOUR SHIFT IS IN NEUTRAL AND HAND BRAKE IS ON !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Click to expand...

OK, I didn't have a spare plug handy, or time to do the first part of your test, so I attacked the easiest stuff first. After doing the resistance check suggested by beanhead (see my response to him below after this), I decided to verify the resistance in the two wires coming out of the distributor. Assuming I did the test correctly, the resistance is correct, and I interpreted that to mean the problem must be in the ignition box, especially since I'm getting sufficient voltage to the + side of the coil.

So I skipped to the second part of your test, i.e., hot-wiring the + side of the coil to the hot post on the battery. Figured that would be an easy way to verify that the problem is in the ECM. Only problem, the direct jump did absolutely nothing. No crank, no fire, no sound at all. No nothing. And it cranks and cranks and cranks -- just won't fire -- when the power goes through the ignition switch and the ECM.

So instead of narrowing the problem to one side of the coil or the other, now I'm more confused than ever. Or getting dumber by the minute -- not sure which.
 
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beanhead said:
Sounds to me like distributor pickup or ignition box... a basic test on your distributor pick-up coil is to unplug the two wires coming out of the distributor, and put an ohmmeter across them... Should read somewhere between 150 to 900 ohms, and if you check each wire individually to ground, it should give you an infinite or open reading(no numbers) I would also check the air gap inside your distributor pickup(spec .008-.018, use a brass feeler!) if this comes loose and gets out of adjustment it will cause no start condition. You didn't specify, but I'm assuming standard MP electronic ignition box and distributor? I hate to throw money at stuff hoping for a fix BUT you might get a cheap replacement ECU and if it doesn't fix it, always a good thing to carry as a spare....
Click to expand...

You might understand this better if you also read my reply to mr_mopar, immediately before this one.

Trying to attack the easiest and quickest stuff first, I did the resistance test on the two wires coming out of the distributor. WITH THE KEY ON, the resistance reads .315 with the multimeter scale set at 2K. Set at 200, it never changes from the default reading of 1., which I assume to be the same as an open circuit. And I assume the .315 translates to 315 ohms on a 2K scale. The meter manual doesn't provide much information on how to interpret the readings. When I check the wires individually to ground, the meter never moved from the 1. default reading. Again, all that is WITH THE IGNITION KEY TURNED ON.

Since you didn't specify, and I wasn't sure which way to do it, I also did the readings WITH THE KEY TURNED OFF, and the meter never moved from the default 1. reading.

If the key way supposed to be on, and I interpreted the meter readings correctly, I assumed that the problem is NOT in the distributor (or at least not due to the pickup coil). Figuring that meant the ECU could be at fault, I skipped the first part of mr_mopar's suggestion and proceeded directly to hotwiring the coil directly from the battery. Which produced no sound, no crank, no nothing. So now I am more confused than ever.

Looks to me like the result of the part your test that I ran points to the problem being on the ignition side of the coil, and the result of the part of his test points to the problem being on the other side.

I'm learning a lot about ignition systems for sure, and I appreciate all the suggestions. Please keep 'em coming -- and don't hesitate to tell me when I'm doing or saying something that's not too bright. Once we get the problem fixed, maybe I'll be able to help somebody else down the road (on or the side of it).
 
Key on or off doesn't matter as you are isolating the distributor pickup from any system voltage, by disconnecting it... We are only looking for a resistance measurement. The 2K on your meter means that it will display values up to 2,000 ohms, if the resistance shown is .315 K ohms then yes the measurement is 315 ohms....if no "K" is displayed its .315 ohms which indicates a very low resistance in the pick up, open that puppy up and check the air gap between the pickup and the reluctor with the brass feeler gauge if it's less than 1 ohm it could have come loose and they're touching or it's just plain bad
Overhead pic of distributor with cap removed for clarity:
20170905_173004.jpg



My fat finger holding the feeler gauge in the gap..Note: the point on the distributor collar needs to be directly lined up with the point on the pickup for the air gap measurement( which is hidden by the feeler gauge but you will see it) so the proper way to check this is to pop the distributor out of the engine so you can rotate it and make sure your feeler gauge fits snugly at the moment each of the eight points rotate past the pickup point
20170905_173142.jpg

....I apologize if you already know how to do all this stuff just trying to be as clear and helpful as possible:thumbsup:

( if you do this make absolutely sure your distributor ends up back in the motor in the exact same position as it was before you took it out or you'll have more problems and be cussin' ol beanhead...!)
Again sorry if you know that stuff!
 
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beanhead said:
....I apologize if you already know how to do all this stuff just trying to be as clear and helpful as possible:thumbsup:
Click to expand...

I'm the one who needs to be the apologizing because I know way less than I should -- I'm learning a lot as we go (despite the endless stream of questions that reveal my very shallow knowledge) and I definitely appreciate the detailed information. Other stuff I had read provided the same basic information, but the way you explained it may it understandable for somebody who has never done it. I APPRECIATE the clarity, and the pictures REALLY help. The step-by-step instruction you can get from folks like you in these forums is almost as good as learning by watching -- or actually helping -- somebody do it who knows what they are doing.

I'll keep y'all posted as I continue to work on the problem, and hopefully I will have a chance to spend a little time on the car tomorrow. Then Thursday through Sunday we will be away from home visiting family, and I'll get back to it with a vengeance next week.

Now to technical: I'm pretty sure it was .315 ohms -- with no K -- so I think I understand that since it doesn't matter whether there is current or not, .315 ohms with the key on is essentially the same as 1. ohm (the base reading without contacts touching anything, being the equivalent of 0, I guess???).

So check me out on three points:

(1) Bottom line: the multimeter readings indicate essentially no resistance, suggesting the pickup coil is loose and/or touching the reluctor, or it has simply failed. Correct?

(2) If that's the case -- and a repairable air gap alone is not the problem -- can I replace the pickup coil by itself, or does it come with the ECU (requiring that I purchase an entire unit?

(3) And finally -- since the engine cranks with the ignition key -- but just won't fire and start -- why does it do NOTHING when I hotwire the coil directly from the battery?
 
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No worries! You're in the right place!

(1) Bottom line: the multimeter readings indicate essentially no resistance, suggesting the pickup coil is loose and/or touching the reluctor, or it has simply failed. Correct?
Yep there should be some resistance..the factory spec was I believe 150-900 ohm range..

(2) If that's the case -- and a repairable air gap alone is not the problem -- can I replace the pickup coil by itself, or does it come with the ECU (requiring that I purchase an entire unit?
Start here https://www.summitracing.com/parts/smp-lx102/overview/make/chrysler
If that's not right & you can't find what you need your best bet would be a whole new distributor(my Mopar Performance conversion kit distributor failed too)

(3) And finally -- since the engine cranks with the ignition key -- but just won't fire and start -- why does it do NOTHING when I hotwire the coil directly from the battery?
You still need to engage the starter to crank the engine over...
 
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