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Building a RV 440

Reboot always remember that "bigger is better" really only pertains to cubic inches. Big cams,headers always sound & "talk" good, but matching everything up good works better on the street for good drivability.
Thanks good to know. Thats why I really want to learn, plan and then build this engine.
 
Ok so i measured the piston height this evening. And I got an average of .149 inches below the deck. and the bore diameter at 4.30 but there is a bit of a chamfer at the top.
What compression would I be at if I used the 452 heads? I know gasket thickness comes in to play as well but whats a ball park?
 
I don't want to throw a guess on the ratio out there, but .149 is low
 
If your block has not been rebuilt and has the stock late 440 pistons you'll find them way down the hole just use a machinist rule or dial caliper - no need to be exact
let us know if the stock shim gaskets or were they thick aftermarket gaskets
don't worry about cam numbers yet
you need to eventually pick an intake close point in conjunction with your compression ratio
closing the intake earlier gives you more squeeze- you cant build cylinder pressure till the intake is closed
but too much pressure gives you pinging- so higher compression you close the intake later
Now about lobe centers- wrong approach lobe centers is what is left over after you pick the intake and exhaust timing- it's should be a result not a design parameter
for example if you use that 8 degree shorter lobe you can "squeeze the lobe centers together" aka "closer" and still keep the intake close at the same place
Use a lazy cam like the stocker and you have to spread the lobe centers wider or it would close way too late- problem is overlap gets to big and idle and vaccuum for the power brakes goes away. all tradeoffs
cheers
 
8.0 on a good day rebuild with thick gaskets and even less and if you use "rebuilder" pistons which are "compensated" you can end up with 7.5
like I said- blower works (THAT'S :)
 
Ok so i measured the piston height this evening. And I got an average of .149 inches below the deck. and the bore diameter at 4.30 but there is a bit of a chamfer at the top.
What compression would I be at if I used the 452 heads? I know gasket thickness comes in to play as well but whats a ball park?

Stock bore is 4.320" How do the cylinders look, smooth, scratched?
Compression is right around 8.0:1 with the open chamber 88-89cc heads.
If the short block is in decent shape to be used as is, I would look at small chamber aftermarket heads. I think the Brodix B-1 B/S is about the smallest chamber head at 65cc (9.59:1 compression with 0.020" head gasket), but it is also one of the most expensive too. The old '67 915 heads I think are around 72(9.06:1) to 75cc(8.85:1), but somewhat hard to find. Edelbrock has a few different versions of 75cc heads (E-street, RPM, Victor.)
Indy EZ, 440-1, SR are also 75cc. Trick Flow are 78cc(8.66:1)

If you need to rebuild the short block, then put good flat top pistons in it that are near zero deck height. A piston compression height (pin center to piston top) of about 2.060" should put the piston about 0.022" below deck of a unmilled 10.725" tall block.
Many KB/ICON pistons are 2.067" (0.015" below deck, so easy to mill block for zero deck height.) ROSS pistons are 2.065" (0.017"), SRP pistons 2.062" (0.019"), Sealed power 2355 2.061"(0.021"), JE pistons 2.058"(0.024")

What is the final goal? Have you considered a Gen III Hemi? If you want EFI, serpentine belt drive, modern A/C, and such, the Gen III might be an option. I scored a nice 2008 6.1 SRT engine with NAG trans and all the accessories, wiring harness and computer for $4,000. I will likely drop another $2,000+ into converting the harness and re-program the computer, or maybe just go aftermarket EFI computer (maybe try a Holley Dominator EFI?)
 
Wallace has you at 8.01:1 with 0.020 steel shim gaskets w/ 4.38 gasket bore, assuming flat tops.

http://www.wallaceracing.com/cr_test2.php

Yes it has flat tops. Damn i was hoping for a bit better than 8.1 to 1.

If your block has not been rebuilt and has the stock late 440 pistons you'll find them way down the hole just use a machinist rule or dial caliper - no need to be exact
let us know if the stock shim gaskets or were they thick aftermarket gaskets
don't worry about cam numbers yet



We tore this engine apart when i picked it a few years ago. Ill double check if i saved the gaskets.. might have cant remember.

Stock bore is 4.320" How do the cylinders look, smooth, scratched?
Compression is right around 8.0:1 with the open chamber 88-89cc heads.
If the short block is in decent shape to be used as is, I would look at small chamber aftermarket heads. I think the Brodix B-1 B/S is about the smallest chamber head at 65cc (9.59:1 compression with 0.020" head gasket), but it is also one of the most expensive too. The old '67 915 heads I think are around 72(9.06:1) to 75cc(8.85:1), but somewhat hard to find. Edelbrock has a few different versions of 75cc heads (E-street, RPM, Victor.)
Indy EZ, 440-1, SR are also 75cc. Trick Flow are 78cc(8.66:1)

If you need to rebuild the short block, then put good flat top pistons in it that are near zero deck height. A piston compression height (pin center to piston top) of about 2.060" should put the piston about 0.022" below deck of a unmilled 10.725" tall block.
Many KB/ICON pistons are 2.067" (0.015" below deck, so easy to mill block for zero deck height.) ROSS pistons are 2.065" (0.017"), SRP pistons 2.062" (0.019"), Sealed power 2355 2.061"(0.021"), JE pistons 2.058"(0.024")

What is the final goal? Have you considered a Gen III Hemi? If you want EFI, serpentine belt drive, modern A/C, and such, the Gen III might be an option. I scored a nice 2008 6.1 SRT engine with NAG trans and all the accessories, wiring harness and computer for $4,000. I will likely drop another $2,000+ into converting the harness and re-program the computer, or maybe just go aftermarket EFI computer (maybe try a Holley Dominator EFI?)

The short block looks to be in pretty good condition. No ridge cylinders look good to me no ridge, pistons look good as well. I can take some pics tomorrow. I remember right the motor home had 30,000 miles on the odometer.

As far as final out come I've always wanted a 440 so when i found a cheep one on craigslist a few years ago i jumped on it. Yes the easier route would be to put a 360 in because it fits with all my existing set up but its not the big block I've dreamed about.

Im not trying to get too crazy with this engine and do any thing super radical chasing massive hp numbers but i do want to build it right and at the end i want a strong 440 that runs well but also on occasion has the ability to show the mustangs and tuners my taillights.

To get my compression closer to 9 to 1 whats my best option?
A) Do i want to plan on smaller aftermarket heads? What about a full top end kits? or are those too generic?
or
B) Do i put new pistons in and then rework the factory heads?
I feel like Im chasing my tail.
How achievable are my goals?
 
To get my compression closer to 9 to 1 whats my best option?
A) Do i want to plan on smaller aftermarket heads? What about a full top end kits? or are those too generic?
or
B) Do i put new pistons in and then rework the factory heads?
I feel like Im chasing my tail.
How achievable are my goals?

That is the problem. If you dump money into the short block, you still have to deal with the stock heads. If the short block can be used, I would put the money in the aftermarket heads. Better flow is more power no matter the compression ratio, not to mention lighter weight, cooler running (no exhaust crossover), better combustion chambers and spark plug location, hardened seats, better valve guides, larger stainless steel valves, and the new springs, retainers, locks, and spring seats.
The lower compression may cost you some low end torque, but a higher stall converter can solve that issue.
This path also works if you decide to build the short block later, or even stroke it. You can then pick pistons for the compression ratio you want with the heads.
 
Use the wallace calculator linked to above
If you use the 2.060 flat top pistons you are essentially building a 6 pack compression type motor- advertised at 11:1 It's actually not usually that much- learn to use the calculator
67 heads- find any 4bbl 67 (imperial- new yorker)- where are U and I'll give U a set but not a bargain once you figure in new seats, guides, valves
I may have a set with seats and guides but you still end up with 906 style ports - which are tricky to port- I do run them on a couple of motors - that I built 30 years ago
BUT unless you get a piston with a reverse dish you will still have a combustion chamber that sucks
" I would put the money in the aftermarket heads. Better flow is more power no matter the compression ratio, not to mention lighter weight, cooler running (no exhaust crossover), better combustion chambers and spark plug location, hardened seats, better valve guides, larger stainless steel valves, and the new springs, retainers, locks, and spring seats."
All true but if you leave the pistons down the hole your combustion chamber (including what's in the block still sucks
good points rebootej but with his OD he is not going to want a loose converter- I guess if he has lock up he can make it work
 
Keith Black 236 gives 10:1
their ICON IC836 step dish has 12cc dish and gives 9.3 and a bit less if you open up around the valves with 452 heads
https://www.uempistons.com/index.ph...id=249&zenid=ae1a52b19c9f7433857d8f1bab42d9a6
this piston actually works best for a wedge head and 10:1 80 cc head
Hyper - Cast KB363.STD 16 Chrysler 440 Chrysler 6.735 rod -9.9cc step dome - discontinued pm clearance
but think about the heads first
or instead of just doing pistons you can think of a stroker kit
there is no easy answer with a late 440 but measure twice- cut once
 
Keith Black 236 gives 10:1
their ICON IC836 step dish has 12cc dish and gives 9.3 and a bit less if you open up around the valves with 452 heads
https://www.uempistons.com/index.ph...id=249&zenid=ae1a52b19c9f7433857d8f1bab42d9a6
this piston actually works best for a wedge head and 10:1 80 cc head
Hyper - Cast KB363.STD 16 Chrysler 440 Chrysler 6.735 rod -9.9cc step dome - discontinued pm clearance
but think about the heads first
or instead of just doing pistons you can think of a stroker kit
there is no easy answer with a late 440 but measure twice- cut once


gave you the wrong kb piston
look at the kb 184
Compression height of this piston if 1.992". .140" quench dome. Suggest checking quench dome with clay for clearance. Centered pin. Closed chamber heads require the quench dome to be machined down.
the .140 quench dome goes up into the open chamber to give you some quench and kill detonation on that side of the chamber
I helped design this piston with then Chief Engineer John Erb but real genius was Don Bass of TMS propane and also dyno work at Speed-O-Motive
only way to make an open chamber work (well we used to weld them up)
design also works with wedge heads as you (get to) have to adjust the quench distance
I've had forged pistons made with this design for things like a Superbird with a matching number 383 and hidden stroker - made 426 but could also be done with longer crank and for 400 and 440 strokers
 
Use the wallace calculator linked to above
If you use the 2.060 flat top pistons you are essentially building a 6 pack compression type motor- advertised at 11:1 It's actually not usually that much- learn to use the calculator
67 heads- find any 4bbl 67 (imperial- new yorker)- where are U and I'll give U a set but not a bargain once you figure in new seats, guides, valves
I may have a set with seats and guides but you still end up with 906 style ports - which are tricky to port- I do run them on a couple of motors - that I built 30 years ago
BUT unless you get a piston with a reverse dish you will still have a combustion chamber that sucks

I mentioned the higher compression height, but the flat top pistons with 84cc heads and 0.040' head gasket is only about 10:1 compression. You can also get D-dish pistons with the higher compression height to lower the compression ratio, and have good quench with a closed chamber head.
I was going through these thoughts with my '73 Jensen interceptor 440 engine. The heads need rebuilt, and I have some B-1 B/S heads on the shelf, and I thought about putting those on the engine, but the short block is going to need to be-built too, so I just went straight to a 505" stroker (27cc dish piston, about 10:1 compression) with Trick flow heads and threw the budget out the window. It sure gets to be chasing your tail trying to do this cheaply. Usually end up doing it twice when trying to do it cheap?
 
posted a number for a D Dish and Step Dish both with higher compression height go to the KB site and take a look select hyper pistons and Chrysler and 440
On the Step Dish you have to add the .140 quench dome to the compression height given and figure how far out of the block you are
on the KB site click on the picture of the piston to get the details- other sites work too but KB is easy

"I mentioned the higher compression height, but the flat top pistons with 84cc heads and 0.040' head gasket is only about 10:1 compression. true not 11:1 like six pack claims but still require very premium gas to work with open chamber heads
WE did not mention advance Open Chambers like a lot to run well, and good gas Note how the later combustion chambers like the Chevy run well with less than 30 degrees- there is a reason, also small block LA mopars with the plugs up top take less even with a less than modern chamber- the Magnum is better but still late 80's technology (introduced in 1992- I have one)
 
That is the problem. If you dump money into the short block, you still have to deal with the stock heads. If the short block can be used, I would put the money in the aftermarket heads. Better flow is more power no matter the compression ratio, not to mention lighter weight, cooler running (no exhaust crossover), better combustion chambers and spark plug location, hardened seats, better valve guides, larger stainless steel valves, and the new springs, retainers, locks, and spring seats.
The lower compression may cost you some low end torque, but a higher stall converter can solve that issue.
This path also works if you decide to build the short block later, or even stroke it. You can then pick pistons for the compression ratio you want with the heads.

I can get the engine up to between 9.0 or 9.5 to 1 by swapping in aftermarket heads i think i would rather go that route assuming the short block is good and I like the idea of being able do the stoker down the road not really a step backward.

Use the wallace calculator linked to above
If you use the 2.060 flat top pistons you are essentially building a 6 pack compression type motor- advertised at 11:1 It's actually not usually that much- learn to use the calculator
67 heads- find any 4bbl 67 (imperial- new yorker)- where are U and I'll give U a set but not a bargain once you figure in new seats, guides, valves
I may have a set with seats and guides but you still end up with 906 style ports - which are tricky to port- I do run them on a couple of motors - that I built 30 years ago
BUT unless you get a piston with a reverse dish you will still have a combustion chamber that sucks
" I would put the money in the aftermarket heads. Better flow is more power no matter the compression ratio, not to mention lighter weight, cooler running (no exhaust crossover), better combustion chambers and spark plug location, hardened seats, better valve guides, larger stainless steel valves, and the new springs, retainers, locks, and spring seats."
All true but if you leave the pistons down the hole your combustion chamber (including what's in the block still sucks
good points rebootej but with his OD he is not going to want a loose converter- I guess if he has lock up he can make it work

Im in Northern California, Ill practice with and get to know the calculator. How do I know what head gasket thickness to use?

I mentioned the higher compression height, but the flat top pistons with 84cc heads and 0.040' head gasket is only about 10:1 compression. You can also get D-dish pistons with the higher compression height to lower the compression ratio, and have good quench with a closed chamber head.
I was going through these thoughts with my '73 Jensen interceptor 440 engine. The heads need rebuilt, and I have some B-1 B/S heads on the shelf, and I thought about putting those on the engine, but the short block is going to need to be-built too, so I just went straight to a 505" stroker (27cc dish piston, about 10:1 compression) with Trick flow heads and threw the budget out the window. It sure gets to be chasing your tail trying to do this cheaply. Usually end up doing it twice when trying to do it cheap?

Im not really trying to do it cheap, I'm just not trying to do it expensive does that make sense? Im a first year teacher paying back student loans. Id like to get my car back on the road and I've always wanted a big block so i figure now the time while I'm still single and young. But youre right it is a lot to think about and consider.

Is a top end kit going to be a good option or not?
 
Found some local 915 heads. He had them origally listed as 415. Would these be worth picking up or would it be better to get aftermarket aluminum heads?

https://chico.craigslist.org/pts/6263791487.html

What is the real goal, to take a 250 HP engine up to 325 HP? or 500+ HP?
For the price, if the heads are good (not cracked, excess milled, or other damage), it might be worth getting? I guess you could use them and have more compression, but without port work they flow about the same. The good part would be low cost (if they don't need work?) and you could re-sell them if/when you upgrade. If you have to put additional money into the heads, then they can get expensive too.

There is many good things about the aftermarket aluminum heads, except cost. In addition to the cost of the heads, the heads require a reduced hex (or 12-point) head bolt (or stud) kit. The ARP head bolt kits add about $90-$100 (for unknown reason Edelbrock version of the same ARP head bolts is $150?) Studs would be about $200-$220?
The basic replacement aluminum heads can use stock rocker arms, but the higher flowing race heads use offset rocker arms so the heads can have larger intake ports. A good rocker arm setup can cost $800+, but likely over kill if your using a mild hydraulic flat tappet cam.

Like you mentioned, it is like chasing your tail.
What do you plan to run for the intake manifold, carb, and exhaust system?
 
Big blocks are more consistent and easier to figure out than small blocks. A 452 head will work fine with pocket porting. A new, modern aluminum head will be better. Keep in mind that an aluminum head will take a full one point compression increase for the same gas compared to an iron head. By that I mean an Aluminum head can use 10.5 CR and run on pump gas premium. Also all the builders I've talked to say with the aluminum heads you do need to give them a guide fitting & valve job. Camshafts are still are a mystery. If you find the 915 heads, they are really good. Pocket port them and they make really good power.
 
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