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Supercharging....

747mopar

747mopar

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So my priorities somehow got mixed up... added A/C, serpentine setup, stereo....this is all great and adds to the reliability, comfort and enjoyment but doesn't do a thing for going fast!! I've been looking to add some ponies to the Charger for awhile but do to my lower cruising rpms the normal route of obtaining more HP isn't an option so Supercharging is on the table.

The purpose of this thread is to get everything that will be needed on the table so I can get a feel for the cost before I dive in. I'm only a few days into researching this so here's where I'm at.

Goon being the instigator that he is offered me a deal on a D1 which more than meets my goal..... and sparked a real interest (intentional I'm sure:rolleyes:) so that would be covered.

I have a super nice Quickfuel Q series carb that will cost $500 to have it reworked by CSU... Please all you EFI guys resist the urge to sway me towards EFI... I like nut and bolts not computers lol.

Brackets will be custom made to run it off of the existing serpentine kit. This will likely require me to machine all new 8 rib pulleys as well since mines only 7.

So the rest of the list??

Boost reference regulator.

Aermotive electric fuel pump.

A/F ratio gauge.

Water injection kit?

Carb hat.

Blow off valve.

I'm getting mixed input on ignition, one says with water injection I'll be fine the other says I need a fancy ignition where I'll use a laptop to view and modify the curve $450?

So what am I missing other than plumbing?

Goal is to go from 500HP to 700HP and do it reliably meaning out with the Hyp pistons for forged and better rods.
 
747mopar said:
So my priorities somehow got mixed up... added A/C, serpentine setup, stereo....this is all great and adds to the reliability, comfort and enjoyment but doesn't do a thing for going fast!! I've been looking to add some ponies to the Charger for awhile but do to my lower cruising rpms the normal route of obtaining more HP isn't an option so Supercharging is on the table.

The purpose of this thread is to get everything that will be needed on the table so I can get a feel for the cost before I dive in. I'm only a few days into researching this so here's where I'm at.

Goon being the instigator that he is offered me a deal on a D1 which more than meets my goal..... and sparked a real interest (intentional I'm sure:rolleyes:) so that would be covered.

I have a super nice Quickfuel Q series carb that will cost $500 to have it reworked by CSU... Please all you EFI guys resist the urge to sway me towards EFI... I like nut and bolts not computers lol.

Brackets will be custom made to run it off of the existing serpentine kit. This will likely require me to machine all new 8 rib pulleys as well since mines only 7.

So the rest of the list??

Boost reference regulator.

Aermotive electric fuel pump.

A/F ratio gauge.

Water injection kit?

Carb hat.

Blow off valve.

I'm getting mixed input on ignition, one says with water injection I'll be fine the other says I need a fancy ignition where I'll use a laptop to view and modify the curve $450?

So what am I missing other than plumbing?

Goal is to go from 500HP to 700HP and do it reliably meaning out with the Hyp pistons for forged and better rods.
Click to expand...

I can probably help you out.

Engine, what exactly are you working with? Static / dynamic compression ratio? Camshaft profile?
Purchase a used CSU blow-through carburetor, and sell your quick-fuel. Can easily find one used for $500.
Aeromotive Boost Referenced Fuel Pressure Regulator
-8/10 an feed / -10/12 an return fuel line.
Wideband, your choice, AEM or Innovate Motorsports are great.
A1000 pump or twin-walbro 255's. Typically, the non-race style pump will last much longer on a street car.
Carb Hat, my vote would go to the Extreme Velocity Pro series. Very critical on a blow-through setup.
Blow-off valve, Race Parts Solutions. Tial. JGS. Quite a few companies out their, another item you can easily find used.
Stop - right - now - if you believe that you don't need a fancy ignition :) . Forced induction is extremely complex without modern EFI and ECU's. But in reality, yes, you can run a boost-timing-master and 6AL ignition. That is what I did initially and it was fine. Seriously though, move to a 6AL-2. I have the additional MAP sensor you'll need and it is plug-and-play, nearly brand new, for $30. But yes, most of the time on a turbo / FI application you will utilize locked timing and only pull timing under boost (1*-2* per PSI). No typical curve is present. On a centrifugal setup, you may be able to program a mild curve as the boost is generally more engine-speed related.
I ran a few years on cast pistons with my turbo setup on 6-8 psi. It's possible but you're going to be playing it safe on a street driven car.

I had the snow performance kit, realistically, with a blow-through carburetor setup you're not going to use more than 30% meth. Most of the time, 80/20-70/30 water/meth mix. Using too much meth will cause the engine to run lean. In my case, it only took one tank of old premium fuel to destroy the #5 piston. Something modern knock-sensors would have picked up on right away; pulling additional timing and increasing injector pulse width to compensate.

It's a lot to keep up with, for your power goals, 500+ cubes, Trickflow 270's and a solid-roller all day long. I wouldn't even think twice about it, AndyF is making north of 750hp on a very basic setup with the 270's. I would love to tell you it's easy, but it isn't. Will take hundreds of hours of research if you want to do it right, it's not a bolt-on for a classic car. Building a car with a roots blower, is the power delivery system you're describing (more power during idle-cruise conditions) but is horribly inefficient. On the other hand, a centrifugal setup like a Procharger isn't going to offer the same style of torque/power delivery.
 
Last edited:
Sweet5ltr said:
I can probably help you out.

Engine, what exactly are you working with? Static / dynamic compression ratio? Camshaft profile?
Purchase a used CSU blow-through carburetor, and sell your quick-fuel. Can easily find one used for $500.
Aeromotive Boost Referenced Fuel Pressure Regulator
-8/10 an feed / -10/12 an return fuel line.
Wideband, your choice, AEM or Innovate Motorsports are great.
A1000 pump or twin-walbro 255's. Typically, the non-race style pump will last much longer on a street car.
Carb Hat, my vote would go to the Extreme Velocity Pro series. Very critical on a blow-through setup.
Blow-off valve, Race Parts Solutions. Tial. JGS. Quite a few companies out their, another item you can easily find used.
Stop - right - now - if you believe that you don't need a fancy ignition :) . Forced induction is extremely complex without modern EFI and ECU's. But in reality, yes, you can run a boost-timing-master and 6AL ignition. That is what I did initially and it was fine. Seriously though, move to a 6AL-2. I have the additional MAP sensor you'll need and it is plug-and-play, nearly brand new, for $30. But yes, most of the time on a turbo / FI application you will utilize locked timing and only pull timing under boost (1*-2* per PSI). No typical curve is present. On a centrifugal setup, you may be able to program a mild curve as the boost is generally more engine-speed related.
I ran a few years on cast pistons with my turbo setup on 6-8 psi. It's possible but you're going to be playing it safe on a street driven car.

I had the snow performance kit, realistically, with a blow-through carburetor setup you're not going to use more than 30% meth. Most of the time, 80/20-70/30 water/meth mix. Using too much meth will cause the engine to run lean. In my case, it only took one tank of old premium fuel to destroy the #5 piston. Something modern knock-sensors would have picked up on right away; pulling additional timing and increasing injector pulse width to compensate.

It's a lot to keep up with, for your power goals, 500+ cubes, Trickflow 270's and a solid-roller all day long. I wouldn't even think twice about it, AndyF is making north of 750hp on a very basic setup with the 270's. I would love to tell you it's easy, but it isn't. Will take hundreds of hours of research if you want to do it right, it's not a bolt-on for a classic car. Building a car with a roots blower, is the power delivery system you're describing (more power during idle-cruise conditions) but is horribly inefficient. On the other hand, a centrifugal setup like a Procharger isn't going to offer the same style of torque/power delivery.
Click to expand...
Not following the part where I'm describing a Roots blower power delivery??? Think you missed what I was saying. Because I cruise at 2,000 rpm and lower going the normal route for gaining more HP was in reference to adding a larger cam and increasing the motors rpms range.

Definitely won't be buying heads either, every shop I talk to says my goal is very achievable as is.
 
Last edited:
747mopar said:
Not following the part where I'm describing a Roots blower power delivery??? Think you missed what I was saying. Because I cruise at 2,000 rpm and lower going the normal route for gaining more HP was in reference to adding a larger cam and increasing the motors rpms range.
Click to expand...

Roots/screw types of forced induction will dramatically increase your power curve at low-rpm (power 'under the curve'). That is what you're looking for. A centrifugal will act like similar to a naturally aspirated build, which is fine, but it needs engine-speed to make boost. I've installed a Paxton S/C kit on a friends Coyote, and had a Vortech on my Saleen. They're great. But, what you're describing isn't what they are best suited for.
 
First things first, do you have a cooling package that will accommodate this?
Second if you have to think about if you can "budget build it" I wouldn't.
If $s is a concern just put NOS on it with a controller with a electric bottle valve. This will give you 150 hp easy. And be way cheaper.
If your doing it for wow factor then ok you don't need a 700 hp build. You'll be pushing a stock block to the limit. If your going to run it at the track then you better have some stout drivetrain pieces. If it's street you'll probably never get it hooked up.
I'd get it on the street with what you have currently then reassess. Most people have never driven anything with 500 hp let a lone 700. At 700 hp it's not if, but when will it break. Also check with your insurance person first you may get a surprise.
Don't get me wrong I love HP, I just want you to be aware of all the pros & cons.
 
Sweet5ltr said:
Roots/screw types of forced induction will dramatically increase your power curve at low-rpm (power 'under the curve'). That is what you're looking for. A centrifugal will act like similar to a naturally aspirated build, which is fine, but it needs engine-speed to make boost. I've installed a Paxton S/C kit on a friends Coyote, and had a Vortech on my Saleen. They're great. But, what you're describing isn't what they are best suited for.
Click to expand...
Your just misunderstanding me, if anything I want it to run exactly like it does right now at idle or low rpm which is why I want a supercharger.
 
747mopar said:
Your just misunderstanding me, if anything I want it to run exactly like it does right now at idle or low rpm which is why I want a supercharger.
Click to expand...
Why not just run a centrifugal? Or as Tim says, just spray it. My dog runs 11.0’s on motor and 9.50 on the bottle lol.
 
69 GTX said:
First things first, do you have a cooling package that will accommodate this?
Second if you have to think about if you can "budget build it" I wouldn't.
If $s is a concern just put NOS on it with a controller with a electric bottle valve. This will give you 150 hp easy. And be way cheaper.
If your doing it for wow factor then ok you don't need a 700 hp build. You'll be pushing a stock block to the limit. If your going to run it at the track then you better have some stout drivetrain pieces. If it's street you'll probably never get it hooked up.
I'd get it on the street with what you have currently then reassess. Most people have never driven anything with 500 hp let a lone 700. At 700 hp it's not if, but when will it break. Also check with your insurance person first you may get a surprise.
Don't get me wrong I love HP, I just want you to be aware of all the pros & cons.
Click to expand...
My whole life is a budget but I always figure out how to pull it off lol. Having said that I'm already starting to see where your going with this and quite honestly am on the fence with it. I'm seeing the large picture where not only is it the Procharger specific parts but will likely end up evolving into tubbing the car, putting a different rear suspension in, better driveshaft.... on and on.

Also I've put 12,000 miles on the car so this isn't a project it's already a driver so I'm familiar with it... not fast enough.

Cooling... Probably not but there's only one way to find out, as it sits it never gets hot and holds right at the thermostat setting.

For me I just lust for hard acceleration, I could care less about 1/4 mile times or going 100+ mph but plant me to the seat I'm cheesing ear to ear:D. As for the 700 mark.... I'd love to feel 600hp, it may be plenty but if I build for 700 then it's there if 600 isn't enough.
 
What is your current engine combo/hp at? Is it a 440 or stroker.
 
BTW do you have the passion 5 speed? Will it take 700 HP?
 
69 GTX said:
What is your current engine combo/hp at? Is it a 440 or stroker.
Click to expand...
HP is only a guess, comparing to dyno results from similar builds maybe 500hp. It's a 456, 400 BB bored .060" (due to rusty bores), 1971 440 crank (forged) with reworked 452 heads, solid lift cam, edelbrock performer rpm intake, KB Hyp pistons and a Quickfuel 750 DP. Heads revieved the larger Ferra valves plus porting and the flow test showed they'd support at least a .550" lift cam. Rods, pistons and cam will need changed I'm sure. I'll have to go back and look the cam up... been to long but it's got an rpm range of 1,800-5,800 with a 501 lift. Compression if I remember correctly was 10:1.
 
From what I'm getting is you want a car that "feels fast" with good low rpm manners. If this was all I had to go off of to build you a engine. I would build you a 500" stroker with the most torque I could build into it. That way you have instant acceleration no matter where you were in the rpm range. If you had a combo that made 550-650 ft lbs of torque way down low in it "under 3500" you'd think you had a rocket. Now granted I've not had mine on the street but that is kinda how I built mine, flat torque curve it's only 590 hp but I'd dare say it'd smoke 95% of anything it'll meet on the street.
Here's my dyno sheet for the little 440+6
Tim%20Borrall%20440%20078.jpg
 
Last edited:
747mopar said:
Your just misunderstanding me, if anything I want it to run exactly like it does right now at idle or low rpm which is why I want a supercharger.
Click to expand...

I understood you fine. Remember, I built a blow-through turbo setup. You simply will not increase power dramatically where you’re looking for it with a centrifugal. It will only develop significant power at higher engine speeds. So, the engine will need to be once again, run at WOT to experience any relative gain (20 +/- hp per # of boost). A roots blower/modern screw style supercharger will make power nearly off-idle. Of course, it will also lay-over much quicker in terms of the usable power band and will not peak as high as a modern centrifugal like a procharger (will make less peak torque at higher RPM). It is a very large investment and the entire car needs to be built around it. Your issue is that you aren’t completely understanding that there are many, many compromises you’re going to have to make in order to run a blow through carbureted setup on the street. I’m not even going to get into the topic of fuel distribution, my #5 piston cracked along with 2-#5 pistons in my friends blow-through low-deck. Unlike, running a 500ci wedge with 270’s making 700hp without trying and 500+ ft/lbs of torque off idle, supercharging a big-block is a very unorthodox way to obtain 700fwhp. My responses would be completely different with modern, direct-port EFI(not FiTech). It’s easy to tune for a drag application where WOT is the only tuning peramiter, but there are very few -good running- supercharged, blow-through carbureted big blocks that are driving on the street. Good luck on whichever way you go!
 
747mopar said:
Your just misunderstanding me, if anything I want it to run exactly like it does right now at idle or low rpm which is why I want a supercharger.
Click to expand...

My 2-cents.... if you want it run EXACTLY like it does now, go with the giggle gas. Just some pistons & a little this-n-that and you'd have what you're looking for in my humble opinion.
 
Hemirunner said:
Why not just run a centrifugal? Or as Tim says, just spray it. My dog runs 11.0’s on motor and 9.50 on the bottle lol.
Click to expand...

That's exactly what he's thinking HR. Remember the Procharged 440 thread? He's debating my D1X as I happened into an F1R

I know you said the D1X would have the perfect manners for street driven and still have some great jam getting into it
 
Sweet5ltr said:
I understood you fine. Remember, I built a blow-through turbo setup. You simply will not increase power dramatically where you’re looking for it with a centrifugal. It will only develop significant power at higher engine speeds. So, the engine will need to be once again, run at WOT to experience any relative gain (20 +/- hp per # of boost). A roots blower/modern screw style supercharger will make power nearly off-idle. Of course, it will also lay-over much quicker in terms of the usable power band and will not peak as high as a modern centrifugal like a procharger (will make less peak torque at higher RPM). It is a very large investment and the entire car needs to be built around it. Your issue is that you aren’t completely understanding that there are many, many compromises you’re going to have to make in order to run a blow through carbureted setup on the street. I’m not even going to get into the topic of fuel distribution, my #5 piston cracked along with 2-#5 pistons in my friends blow-through low-deck. Unlike, running a 500ci wedge with 270’s making 700hp without trying and 500+ ft/lbs of torque off idle, supercharging a big-block is a very unorthodox way to obtain 700fwhp. My responses would be completely different with modern, direct-port EFI(not FiTech). It’s easy to tune for a drag application where WOT is the only tuning peramiter, but there are very few -good running- supercharged, blow-through carbureted big blocks that are driving on the street. Good luck on whichever way you go!
Click to expand...
Nope still not understanding... at all. We'll try explaining this differently. As the car is with it's mild camshaft it is 100% happy cruising in overdrive at 1,800-2,000 rpm (1,800-5,800 rpm advertised range on my cam), so to make more power naturally aspirated a step up in cam is needed meaning let's say 3,500 rpm... now the car is worthless beyond 4th gear. This is the only reference to low rpms that I'm talking about.

Now to the supercharger, centrifugal does EXACTLY what I want. Hell I can go milder on the camshaft making even happier on the freeway and make way more power in the midrange and upper rpms which is what I want. I still don't know where everybody is getting that I want low rpm power? When I'm playing it's to the floor and shifted at 6,000 rpm. Hope this clears it up.
 
Last edited:
PurpleBeeper said:
My 2-cents.... if you want it run EXACTLY like it does now, go with the giggle gas. Just some pistons & a little this-n-that and you'd have what you're looking for in my humble opinion.
Click to expand...
That has crossed my mind many times but hate the idea of messing with refilling bottles or wanting to use it on a whim only to have to open the valve, flip a switch etc. If I do something I want it a stomp of the pedal away at all times.
 
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