Alignment spacers for more NEGative camber...

451Mopar said:

Never used the washers. Just have a street car and can get the alignment I need with the stock upper control arms and adjustable strut rods for more caster.

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Not trying to tell you your business, but adjustable strut rods should never be used to adjust caster... caster is typically adjusted at the top, not at the bottom. The adjustment part of the strut rods is to align the pivot pin perpendicular to the K member so there's no binding. Adjusting for caster will create binding in the pin, and premature wear in the bushing. Just saying...

FYI: I had the QA1 upper arms, and they increase caster by 3 degrees, and can utilize the factory eccentric bolts/washers.

I feel the same way. I have read many posts from guys that see the adjustable strut rods as their shortcut to increased caster. Sometimes it is like screaming into a jet engine when dealing with people with faulty logic.

Disclaimer;
this is not intended to devalue/insult the guys work
or his time & engineering/costs etc.,
that made the spec. spacers at all
IMO they serve a much needed purpose,
for a bad/poor org./cheap design,
that was never a good handling & adjustable design...

Most guys I know,
that have actually had & used the adjustable strut rods
K-frames, Control arms, strut rods or many of the decades
of great aftermarket parts,
{org. Capps Automotive was the only ones out there, for Mopars, it's now owned by QA1}
like those from QA1 "are to free up mobility in the suspension",
more precise movement & arch etc.
it's not for limiting any caster,
even if some others will try to do it that way...
The same guys still stubbornly will argue that
"the old OE Mopar stuff is great",
when it's not, not for performance or handling,
not at any competitive level anyway...
It was never intended to do what some want it to do...

Some people still think the OE 50 year old stuff
gusseted or plated up, is just as good,
or the aftermarket is junk/worthless, I hear that all the time
it's not, OE crap & some stuff it's just a band-aide for a poor design
never intended to be used in a performance &/or
especially for a hard cornering or on a handling application
"let alone straight line stuff"
{these cars push & under-steer so damn bad, it's pitiful}
nowhere near as well thought out & engineered as some believe
"for a performance oriented intended purpose,
not longevity or some Detroit accountants penny pinching"

They were made to last 100k miles, {ill handling the whole way}
probably so they would have to warrantee them, it's all about profit...

the QA1 uppers & lowers or even SPC {truly fully adj. on the car}
or PST tubular UCA's are far superior,
you can easily achieve 2-3-4* or more caster
& 2-3-4* more camber, that changes you want, to make a car handle,
PROPERLY, depending on what it's used for, straight-line or curves...

Not one criteria fits all uses...

Some of us have had Mopars that handle corners as well
as they go down a straight track, for decades now...
Even with torsion bars...
Some of us, seemingly are stuck in the 60's technology,
think only Ma-Mopar or their constrained by accounting budgets
or their engineers knew/know what suspension is,
when if given the time & $$$, IMHFO they'd have done it far differently...

Got to disagree with you on some of those points Bud. Yeah, for competition road racing, sure, a 50 year old design isn't that great when it's compared to the modern stuff today and from the factory, most of the cars that came without sway bars had gross under steer. Did you never drive an AAR or a TA E body car? Even the 71 340 E body cars came with the quick ratio steering with front AND rear sway bars. They handled pretty decent for the 'times' and still do if you're not running factory style wheels and tires etc.

Now a days you can buy a high performance car that already has the sport/handling package etc and don't have to upgrade it with better wheels, tires, shocks, springs and so on. To me though, upgrading all of that was half the fun and the car still didn't cost you an arm and a leg like they do now. 60-80k for a freakin Mustang or Challenger? Geez. With 15 x 7" wheels on my 71 340 Cuda, it handled a heck of a lot better than it did with the original 14" skinny wheels and the only other changes were alignment and shocks. It still had the same old tired springs and sway bars that came on it from the factory. Was it class A handling....no but it did pretty damn good. Also, it wasn't an under steering pig either, Actually, it was pretty neutral unless you got into the throttle and then it got tail happy....but I liked that.

Cranky said:

Got to disagree with you on some of those points Bud. Yeah, for competition road racing, sure, a 50 year old design isn't that great when it's compared to the modern stuff today and from the factory, most of the cars that came without sway bars had gross under steer. Did you never drive an AAR or a TA E body car? Even the 71 340 E body cars came with the quick ratio steering with front AND rear sway bars. They handled pretty decent for the 'times' and still do if you're not running factory style wheels and tires etc.

Now a days you can buy a high performance car that already has the sport/handling package etc and don't have to upgrade it with better wheels, tires, shocks, springs and so on. To me though, upgrading all of that was half the fun and the car still didn't cost you an arm and a leg like they do now. 60-80k for a freakin Mustang or Challenger? Geez. With 15 x 7" wheels on my 71 340 Cuda, it handled a heck of a lot better than it did with the original 14" skinny wheels and the only other changes were alignment and shocks. It still had the same old tired springs and sway bars that came on it from the factory. Was it class A handling....no but it did pretty damn good. Also, it wasn't an under steering pig either, Actually, it was pretty neutral unless you got into the throttle and then it got tail happy....but I liked that.

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I would concede, that your correct on a few of your points...

Budnicks said:

I would concede, that your correct on a few of your points...

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Which ones am I incorrect on?

If you drive worn out stock stuff or OEM restored stock stuff and try to compare it to new cars, then SURE you are going to find the old cars to be inferior. If you took the time to lighten up the front of the car with some aluminum parts, reinforce the chassis and add some properly selected HD components, these cars are pretty decent. Yeah, they are based on economical designs but I'd put them up against any GM or Ford car of the same era.

Cranky said:

Which ones am I incorrect on?

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I didn't say you were incorrect "WRONG" on any
I agreed
I'm not trying to insult your intellect, you tried to critique me,
I responded in kind...
I merely conceded the fact what you said is correct...
Hell if it make you fell better, all of what you said is technically
accurate...
IMO the rest is hyperbola/opinion, no need for any pissing contest...
Opinions vary vastly, I gave mine, you said yours...

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For those that still don't get it...
OK here's some more on the subject,
maybe someone else here, that also has/have similar real world
experiences will chime in too...

Anyone that's actually had these aforementioned aftermarket
suspension parts on their cars also, I don't care what brand...
Not just your opinions about something someone else has
or what someone else said, 2nd party/hearsay BS etc.
I drove it once I didn't notice anything so great, nonsense...
Actual 1st hand experience...
Help me out here, I know I'm not the only one...

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A few more facts & points/comparisons on the subject...

An A-body 1st off a shorter wheel base & much lighter to begin with
none came with a BBM & an E-body with a SBM especially
certainly is no BB B-body in comparison, by any stretch
it's Apples to Pumpkins in comparisons...
Quick ratio steering doesn't do much for handling,
yes for feel maybe, but it's just less turn of the steering wheel,
doesn't do **** for geometry...

Very few Mopars came with both front & rear sway bars
I think the T/A's ir also 2" longer wheel base than the cuda'
& also the AAR's were the only ones to get both from the factory
& only with the 340 six-pak/6bbl they also had a
AAR smaller front tire & a bigger rear {15" ?},
it's the Only car they did like that
{I don't actually remember if the TA's came staggered also}
helped to stagger the ride height also &
helped get it to "turn in better" & only a slight bit better,
with a much lighter front end weights
525#'s for a 340 vs 620-670#'s 383-440

Not to discount/forget the elephants {426 Hemi} that weighed
in the neighborhood of 765#'s, pretty hard to over come 240#'s
more/extra nose weight, let alone 95#'s-145#'s heavier/extra
with merely a wedge BB Vs a SBM

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The cars with BB's especially B-bodies, still push & under-steer
"like a pig", if you haven't driven something that has far better
IMO that you have nothing to compare it too,
also anyone that's done any autocross, even hard cornering,
hell just merely driving "aggressive" in the mountains
at any rate of higher speed/hell slow speeds or road race stuff
can attest to that fact, regardless of sway bars, yes it helps,
makes it far better, but it's still not the best...
Not without the rest of the components to make it right...

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Even the factory E-bodies adding a rear sway bar helps,
"it was a tiny sway bar too", nothing like the aftermarket,
it helped, but that isn't a total cure...
IMO & most the racing communities/engineers all say that,
it's a poor design, for handling PERIOD
Yes some of it can be overcome, buy welding & gussets/plates
it's a lot more than just gussied up OE **** & sway bars
or even bigger torsion bars...
Albeit everything helps, hell almost anything helps,
that's how bad they really are stock...

Some like using the throttle to steer too...
There's nothing wrong with that either...

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Trans Am/USAC guys pretty much change all the geometry/completely,
even attachment points, then added caster & camber
even lengthened the control arms, plus laid back the spindles,
so they would track properly at high speeds...

NASCAR guys made their own stuff, from scratch like above,
"Nothing was/is stock in a stock car", lots of built in/more caster & camber
they also made them actually adjustable on the car...
{like some select few better aftermarket stuff is today}

SCCA guys "**** canned pretty much everything"
suspension wise in Mopars
they could never get enough out of any of the stock style OE Stuff,
no matter how gussied up or plated up, let alone torsion bars,
none of their sway bars systems either, even vaguely looked
like any of the Chrysler stuff on any of the above mentioned...

IIRC all of them above mentioned, all went to front steer vs
"rear steer" OE where the lower ball-joints/tie rods & drag links etc.
was behind the spindles
front steer was far better for bump-steer geometry,
side benefit was more room for oil-pans & headers too...

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A bunch of tubular stuff & a bunch of alum. comp.'s
make a world of difference in the BB cars,
gets them near or even less than an all iron SBM weight over
&/or in-front of the center line of the spindles...
More so truly adjustable UCA's make a world of a difference,
so do the dynamic strut rods, it frees up the movement throughout the
arch/geometry of the front suspension, far less drag/friction too
the tubular LCA's just lighten up sprung weight, they're stiffer because
of made from DOM moly tubing & not flexy, *** stamped steel crap
tubular K-member help to stiffen the chassis too less flex, same reason
it's marginally lighter, again it's not flexy flyer stamped steel,
like on OE stock stuff...
Yes it can be all welded & gusseted up,
but your adding weight than, still not very adjustable...

Hell just the weight savings alone, of the above mentioned,
will help make a world of difference...

Disclaimer this is not meant to offend anyone
I love Mopars, but the OE Chrysler stuff,
some of the designs & cheapness/engineer penny pinching BS
is garbage in comparison, strength & weights, let alone adjustability...

It seems no matter how much you tell "some people"
{I'm not referring to Cranky}
they never will believe you, they argue a bad point/facts/reality
this is now like the umpteenth time we've all had this discussion/debate,
they still don't get it, probably too damn stubborn & never will either...

Edited;
After all this is the Resto-Mod Pro-Touring forum section
for modified car, these are not , I repeat not 100% OEM restorations,
some of US like to tinker, some of US want the best we can get,
IMO $1300-$2000 isn't the end of the world, not especially in car terms,
some of US are cheap & stubborn too, stuck in the 60's too...
Some care more about performance, handling, than looks or originality...

Mopar sent their cars out to specialist, to add performance stuff too...

see ya', se lave

andyf said:

That is exactly what they do. We designed those a few years back as an easy way for Tim to get more camber in his Valiant. Helped make the car stick like glue.View attachment 542732 View attachment 542734

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Stupid thing is why didn't you just use some AMC aligment spacers that already existed in various thickness instead of redesigning the wheel.
"O" guess you can't charge $5 bucks a peace for those.

I will keep my so called ill handling hard steering pig just the way it is thank you.
Its not a race car. Never was and as long as I own them they will not be.
If you feel justified spending mega bucks on suspension parts to get your car down the road so be it.
But I will stand with Cranky our cars handle pretty darn well as conspired to the slush buckets of the day.
Considering GM and Ford had to send them out to specialize builders to get anything that handled anywhere close to decent.
That and the fact I have put some afully expensive junk to shame with my supposedly ill handling pig.

Learning how to drive is just as important as what your driving. Thats been proven time and time again.

How the heck did I get sucked into the resto mod and pro touring form anyway?
I try to avoid it at all cost. So no need to reply.

I agree that these torsion bar "pigs" handle very well, and the below video proves it. The only mods to my car at the time of this video is a set of Hellwig sway bars, an A-body front disc brake conversion, and a Detroit Truetrac. The tires? 60 series Mickey Thompson ST street tires on cop car wheels - by far not a track tire. I was in an local event and was pushing the car pretty hard and someone snapped a pic of me bending the sidewall over pretty far. My friend at Mickey Thompson showed the pic to his engineers and they said, "Yeah, tell him not to do that anymore" because street tire. Nonetheless, the suspension upgrades were not to waste money but to go faster at the track. How did all those mega bucks spent on a suspension upgrade do? lowered my track times by ten seconds in just six trips to the track.

Of course, it should be stated that had I not been the editor of a magazine I likely wouldn't have been able to afford all of the mods (not within the same time period, anyway). I turned the Belvedere into a project car, Project Track Attack - named because after this video below I decided to set a goal to see how all of these upgrades would benefit the handling and performance of the car. Since I'm an older autocrosser-turned-road racer, I like the idea of getting out on the track with a 1965 Mopar and catching modern Mustangs and Camaros in the turns with my paltry 325 HP Poly. I can tell you this... it's addictive, and when people shake their heads at you when you show up with an older car that's typically seen on the 1320, and then come over and ask you, "what do you have in that thing?"... it's epic.

- FYI - if you don't like music, turn the sound down. You couldn't hear the engine anyway (just wind noise) and this was my friends band performing the song, Drive, and I felt it appropriate for the video. Thanks

I guess Budnicks has never seen or read about the "Green Brick"...?

Kern Dog said:

I guess Budnicks has never seen or read about the "Green Brick"...?

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Yeah, that little Valiant is pretty awesome handling car for an old out dated car with crap suspension My first car, a 66 Belvedere 4 dr with stock suspension and no sway bars took 1st in C/Stock at a C.O.A.S.T. autocross event. The only up grades to that car was wheels, tires and better shocks. It was nose heavy with a 383 but did have an aluminum intake, headers etc. Had more fun at that event than any drag race....

I respectfully agree to disagree....

ya'll are nucken' futs...

Budnicks said:

ya'll are nucken' futs...

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I know I am!! It's helped me do much more with a lot less than most others are willing to do...and with much less money too.