Looking for help/info on spring retainers, I broke one

dvw · Dec 17, 2017

The easiest way to measure coil bind. Compress the spring solid in a press or vice with the retainer to be used. Measure under the retainer to the base of the compressed spring. Measure installed height as run. Subtracting the solid height number from installed height number equals coil bind. Check retainer to guide/seal clearance, coil bind, proper spring pressure for the intended use, no interference from the lash caps, and the lock design was matched to the valve groove and retainer. Carefully inspect the lock grooves in the valves. If this is all correct, its simply the retainers that are not up to the task. The mark from the valve piston doesn't bother me. But the oil on top of it and rust in the cylinder does. Did the cylinder (or cylinders) have this rust when the head was removed?
Doug

RT K_line · Dec 17, 2017

dvw said:
The easiest way to measure coil bind. Compress the spring solid in a press or vice with the retainer to be used. Measure under the retainer to the base of the compressed spring. Measure installed height as run. Subtracting the solid height number from installed height number equals coil bind. Check retainer to guide/seal clearance, coil bind, proper spring pressure for the intended use, no interference from the lash caps, and the lock design was matched to the valve groove and retainer. Carefully inspect the lock grooves in the valves. If this is all correct, its simply the retainers that are not up to the task. The mark from the valve piston doesn't bother me. But the oil on top of it and rust in the cylinder does. Did the cylinder (or cylinders) have this rust when the head was removed?
Doug

The rust marks were there and that bothers me. I only see it in that cylinder but haven't rotated the engine yet. I think I'm going to check with the camera to see if I can see anything obvious. If not I'll put the head back on and fill with water and pressure test the cooling system. I can use the camera again to check for coolant getting into the cylinder. If it checks out I'll work on checking for coIL bind. I think I did check it when I assembled it though. Thanks for your input.

dvw · Dec 17, 2017

Roll the piston down look closely at the cylinder wall. Usually pretty easy to see. If it wasn't losing coolant before it's unlikely that the cylinder wall or head gasket failed at the same time as the retainer Now when the valve collided there may be head damage around the guide. Take the head to a machine shop and have it pressure checked. It'll need a valve, possibly a guide, and the seat checked anyway.
Doug

RT K_line · Dec 17, 2017

lewtot184 said:
you will probably need to disassemble the head to get a good look. could be the gasket or a crack in the cylinder? i'm just speculating from the pictures but that's water. have the heads been ported? there are, or least were, some exhaust port problems with cnc'd edelbrocks.

So It looks like coolant to me too but I remember seeing the cylinder and piston with a camera thru the spark plug hole and there was no signs of coolant in the cylinder and I don't recall any discoloration on the cylinder walls. Do you think it might have come from coolant leaking into the cylinder when I broke the head bolts loose. I did notice the top slits in the head gasket where the coolant passages are were clogged up so there was a lot of rusty coolant that came out. It did have coolant though but probably wasn't circulating very good. What would be your next best guess if I don't find a leak into the cylinder. I think that would explain it.

HEMI-ITIS · Dec 17, 2017

RT K_line said:
Educate me what am I looking at. It looks impressive but not sure what your showing me. Thanks

We have 7* locks,,,,10* locks and now round radial keepers.Do some GOOGLing

dvw · Dec 18, 2017

RT K_line said:
So It looks like coolant to me too but I remember seeing the cylinder and piston with a camera thru the spark plug hole and there was no signs of coolant in the cylinder and I don't recall any discoloration on the cylinder walls. Do you think it might have come from coolant leaking into the cylinder when I broke the head bolts loose. I did notice the top slits in the head gasket where the coolant passages are were clogged up so there was a lot of rusty coolant that came out. It did have coolant though but probably wasn't circulating very good. What would be your next best guess if I don't find a leak into the cylinder. I think that would explain it.

Very possible. Like I stated, pressure check the head. But the spark plug in post #1 shows no sign of coolant usage.
Doug

RT K_line · Dec 19, 2017

dvw said:
Very possible. Like I stated, pressure check the head. But the spark plug in post #1 shows no sign of coolant usage.
Doug

So today I put the head back on minus the damaged valve and put 17 psi in the cooling system and put the camera thru the valve guide. No signs of water entering the cylinder. My pressure tester held constant pressure within 2psi which I attribute to my 30 year old stant tester. So I cleaned the cylinder before I assembled it and the brown stain was like carbon. Or more like fuel that has sat and dried up (coking) I've seen a similar coking in diesel tanks that haven't been used for awhile. To me this makes more sense now. A while back when I started to work on my bodywork and paint I was having a problem with my carb smoking after I turned it off. I cleaned the needles and seats and it stopped. I don't think I'm grasping at straws because it makes sense to me. Any thoughts, I know it's not something you see ever day but everything else checks out ok. Just a coincidence it was on the cylinder that also failed. Thanks for you input.
Ken

RT K_line · Dec 29, 2017

dvw said:
The easiest way to measure coil bind. Compress the spring solid in a press or vice with the retainer to be used. Measure under the retainer to the base of the compressed spring. Measure installed height as run. Subtracting the solid height number from installed height number equals coil bind. Check retainer to guide/seal clearance, coil bind, proper spring pressure for the intended use, no interference from the lash caps, and the lock design was matched to the valve groove and retainer. Carefully inspect the lock grooves in the valves. If this is all correct, its simply the retainers that are not up to the task. The mark from the valve piston doesn't bother me. But the oil on top of it and rust in the cylinder does. Did the cylinder (or cylinders) have this rust when the head was removed?
Doug

OK I measured the spring in a press and at installed height and got .675 difference. With my 580 lift does that mean I have .095 before coil bind? Not sure if the decimal is right either. Thanks for the help. Ken

miller · Dec 30, 2017

'Lift' at the cam lobe is different at the rocker arm.

dvw · Dec 30, 2017

RT K_line said:
OK I measured the spring in a press and at installed height and got .675 difference. With my 580 lift does that mean I have .095 before coil bind? Not sure if the decimal is right either. Thanks for the help. Ken

I'm assuming you mean the fully compressed distance was .0675" further than .587"? If so your good. Your cam .587" w/o lash. Also .587" lift is theoretical, could be more or less due to actual rocker ratio and geometry. You are plenty safe.
Doug

RT K_line · Dec 30, 2017

dvw said:
I'm assuming you mean the fully compressed distance was .0675" further than .587"? If so your good. Your cam .587" w/o lash. Also .587" lift is theoretical, could be more or less due to actual rocker ratio and geometry. You are plenty safe.
Doug

I subtracted the compressed solid measurement from the Installed height measurement to get .675, is that the correct method of checking it for coil bind. Ken

Fran Blacker · Dec 30, 2017

http://www.enginelabs.com/news/video-discussing-valve-groove-styles-with-ferrea-racing-components/

Check valve seal to retainer clearance . Friend of mine put a .550 lift cam in his stock hemi. Didn't cut guides and wondered why rocker arms were sliding off valve head and on to retainer.

dvw · Dec 31, 2017

RT K_line said:
I subtracted the compressed solid measurement from the Installed height measurement to get .675, is that the correct method of checking it for coil bind. Ken

OK, That makes sense. That means the spring has the capability of .675" lift before coil bind. Now install a retainer,seal and locks on the valve. Measure from the bottom of the retainer/locks to the seal.
Doug

RT K_line · Jan 11, 2018

I got it all back together and have made a couple of shake down runs up to 4000 rpms. It has good throttle response and feels better than before. I'll run it a few more times and check compression. So far not loosing any coolant and the oil looks good too. Hoping for a good result, but so far so good for now. I will keep you all posted. Thanks for all you input and advise. Ken

RT K_line · Jan 13, 2018

I did a compression test on the 5 cylinders, 2 on the pass side and 3 on the driver side. Those were the easiest to get to and it ranged from 122 to 128psi. That seems a little low to me but I lost the cam card and have no info on valve timing or overlap without tearing the front of the engine apart to check the front of the cam for a serial number or grind #. On a positive note they are within a few psi of each other even the affected cylinder was 125 psi. The next test will be to run the rpms up some more and then get back to the track in a few weeks. I would go sooner but they are filming a street outlaws episode next week and the next 2 weeks after that a small block chalenge and a top ten list race. I'll post my results asap.
Ken

RT K_line · Apr 4, 2018

Well it’s been awhile since my last update so here it goes. The car had been running good the few times I’ve had it out so a couple of weeks ago I did another compression test on all cylinders. All were within 5 psi so I thought I would go to the track for TNT. I noticed before I was to leave that my oil pressure was at 10 psi hot idle. Normally it’s never lower than 25 psi so I pulled the pump off and inspected it. There were some scratches on the vains and it was rough turning it. So I replaced it all was back to normal but still dropped the pan to check the bearings. The bearings looked good but I found washers and pieces of broken snap ring inside the pickup tube. It turned out my idler gears from my gear drive were coming apart. I took the front of the engine apart to find the crank gear was worn and wore into the crank key. Now I need to find a crank key. But first remove the old one. I tried with a small chisel but no luck. Oh for the love of Mopar.

gkent · Apr 4, 2018

There's a reason many people avoid those cheapo twin-idler gear drives !!!

RT K_line · Apr 4, 2018

Stanton said:
There's a reason many people avoid those cheapo twin-idler gear drives !!!

Yup

lewtot184 · Apr 4, 2018

go back together with a quality chain.

RT K_line · Apr 4, 2018

lewtot184 said:
go back together with a quality chain.

I had ordered a comp cams set awhile back because I had planed on inspecting the set up at some point. The cheap set up probably would work ok in a braket engine that is inspected more often but isn’t sutible for the street.

Looking for help/info on spring retainers, I broke one

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