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Finally time to ditch the carb?

zyzzyx said:
Well, I'm coming out of left field here, so here goes! The main reason I'm looking into this Injection
setup is to be able to use E-85 in my BB. Alcohol has always been a superrior fuel to gasoline
because it makes lots of HP, runs cooler, and now that we have an "easy" way to meter it,
I think I like it! Hope it gets better and better, and hell yeah, I think there will be a day coming
when gasoline as we know it goes away. The more accurately we are able to supply an engine
with air and fuel throughout the RPM range and at varying loads, the more efficient the engine
becomes and we can squeeze out all of the performance.
Click to expand...

Although E85 has a higher octane level than straight gasoline, it has much lower btu rating, which means it must be consumed by the engine at much greater rate. Requiring a larger fuel delivery system, larger injectors, everything in the fuel system must be alcohol compatible, and on top of that it burns at a different stoich rate than gasoline. The air fuel ratio is different. The OE's have it figured out, E85 can be mixed in to the fuel tank and the engine computer can sort it out. I have not seen an aftermarket system that can do that. It would require some type of sensor in the fuel system to determine the alcohol content.

Do you intend to run strictly E85?
 
Not sure. I went on line to find out about
The extra capacity i would need but couldn't find anything. I guess I'll have to call! Everything is Top Secret. I know how to tune carbs, (not an expert) but the idea of an ECU and an O2 sensor constantly monitoring what goes in and what comes out can't be a bad thing.
 
I just read an answer from a FitTech rep that the system works with E-85 with a 30% HP reduction. They are currently working on the software and parts for E-85 kits. I'm hoping!
 
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Yes, that's a fairly common ratio (30%). Even the 1200 FiTech unit is capable of only 800 (+/-) HP on E85.

FiTech just has never given me a great feeling. Way too many other great companies out their that offer excellent customer support and nothing is 'top secret' when it comes to tuning. Holley even provides their Super Sniper software with the base Sniper EFI kit. Meanwhile, even Edelbrock was liquidating some of the Pro-Flo EFI systems (MPFI) for BBC which supported 775HP for only $1,700. That included the distributor, intake manifold, injectors, literally everything. If only we could catch that kind of deal for a Mopar.
 
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I read that to run E-85 with the FiTech, you tell the computer that your engine is 30% larger than it really is and don't change the air/fuel ratio? Not sure if it is just looking at lambda values with the O2 and converting to a/f for gasoline?
I just got the FiTech running on gasoline. I may try E-85 in the future, but I would need a larger volume fuel pump.
Not many EFI computers are set-up to use a flex-fuel sensor. The sensor goes in-line with the fuel system and somehow can detect the amount of alcohol in the fuel? The Fast XFI 2.0 and Holley Dominator can be adapted to use the flex fuel sensor. Not sure about Mega-Squirt or others?
 
451Mopar said:
I read that to run E-85 with the FiTech, you tell the computer that your engine is 30% larger than it really is and don't change the air/fuel ratio? Not sure if it is just looking at lambda values with the O2 and converting to a/f for gasoline?
I just got the FiTech running on gasoline. I may try E-85 in the future, but I would need a larger volume fuel pump.
Not many EFI computers are set-up to use a flex-fuel sensor. The sensor goes in-line with the fuel system and somehow can detect the amount of alcohol in the fuel? The Fast XFI 2.0 and Holley Dominator can be adapted to use the flex fuel sensor. Not sure about Mega-Squirt or others?
Click to expand...

I would be looking on Yellowbullet and other sites for the correct response, I know there was a user who had it maxed out running 9.0's @ 156 MPH. He is at the limit of the unit, ran it one more PSI and the unit could no longer maintain his AFR targets. I guess for a high-hp application, maybe a dual-quad setup would be beneficial for E85, but at that price point, less expensive to just go MPFI.
 
zyzzyx said:
Well, I'm coming out of left field here, so here goes! The main reason I'm looking into this Injection
setup is to be able to use E-85 in my BB. Alcohol has always been a superrior fuel to gasoline
because it makes lots of HP, runs cooler, and now that we have an "easy" way to meter it,
I think I like it! Hope it gets better and better, and hell yeah, I think there will be a day coming
when gasoline as we know it goes away. The more accurately we are able to supply an engine
with air and fuel throughout the RPM range and at varying loads, the more efficient the engine
becomes and we can squeeze out all of the performance.
Click to expand...
I'm sure others will have their own preferences and opinions. For my money alcohol (methanol and ethanol) fuels have half the energy (on a BTU / # basis) as gasoline and must be at a 2x volume of gasoline. E85/FLEX vehicles ajust the PWM of the injectors to supply the same fuel to be able to use alcohol. Usually fuel milage reduces significantly ..... alcohol based fuels are "farm welfare" subsidized by the government.
This is just my opinion. I hate alcohol based fuels.
Bob Renton
 
Scatpack said:
I think it’s prefrence on what to run. I had a 1978 dodge truck with a holley 2D projection kit on it, the first thing I did was toss that and put a carburetor back on. That’s the while point of having an old truck or car, you actually have to drive it and maintain it. Yeah it may run better with tbi or efi but what’s the point of having an old car then? Buy a new “muscle” car if you want the reliability, good gas mileage and handling.
Click to expand...

You have to drive and maintain your car regardless what it has on it. The culture of hot rodding has always involved modifying your car, individualizing it to set it apart from the crowd. Car owners were "improving" on the factory offerings all the time - headers, intake manifolds, bigger tires, traction bars, etc. Many of these Mopars we love so much were modified by their first owners, their second owners, etc. The whole point of installing something like a Holley Sniper is helping the engine be more efficient. It can control timing if you let it; it can control electric fans if you let it. It's no different than tossing that wonderful Thermo-Quad in favor of a square bore carb. You still have to maintain your car - plugs, wires, etc. for these products to work. If you're going to have an issue with someone installing EFI, need to be consistent and nix having an aluminum intake, keep exhaust manifolds instead of headers, points over Chrysler's electronic ignition, and make sure to keep those F70x14 tires (Coker Tire loves it when you spend $200/tire).
 
RJRENTON said:
I'm sure others will have their own preferences and opinions. For my money alcohol (methanol and ethanol) fuels have half the energy (on a BTU / # basis) as gasoline and must be at a 2x volume of gasoline. E85/FLEX vehicles ajust the PWM of the injectors to supply the same fuel to be able to use alcohol. Usually fuel milage reduces significantly ..... alcohol based fuels are "farm welfare" subsidized by the government.
This is just my opinion. I hate alcohol based fuels.
Bob Renton
Click to expand...

To add to what Bob stated, it's a sweetheart deal for companies like ADM and Con-Agra, too. They live off of subsidies, too. The EPA knows ethanol and ethanol-blends are less efficient. Alcohol-based fuels are great for the old Indy engines and Top Fuel dragsters and Funny Cars with ultra-high compression. Not so much for us folks.
 
I don’t have a problem with anybody doing whatever they want with their car. I just stated my opinion. I grew up with the term “muscle car” being a car from 60’s to early 70’s with parts added around the era give or take a few years. Go fast in a straight line, carb, no A/c or power windows. Everybody have their own term of “muscle car” I’m not nic picking or anything but when someone gives up the carb because they can’t figure out how to adjust it, gives up and go efi. Why not learn how to adjust a carb? Be the only guy on the street that knows how to adjust a carb? Seems like the norm nowadays is to add modern stuff to old school muscle. I get it, some people lose a pair and add efi because they can’t stand or know how to maintain a carb or A/C because they can’t stand sweating on their way to the golf course, haha. In my area, you want to be different? Don’t be like everyone else and add all the modern stuff, keep it old school and you will really stand out. By the way, I buy Polyglas tires which is way more then 200 a tire. What’s your definition of a “muscle car”?:drinks:
 
For me it is a matter of money. I'm too cheap to go efi or multiport. As a matter of fact I was to upgrade it would be for a 6 pack setup...which still happens to be quite expensive. I know how to tune and rebuild a carb but I do envy the efi users who do not have to worry about fuel boil or percolation. I doubt I would put a dent in my fuel savings buying one so that isn't even a factor.
 
Scatpack said:
I don’t have a problem with anybody doing whatever they want with their car. I just stated my opinion. I grew up with the term “muscle car” being a car from 60’s to early 70’s with parts added around the era give or take a few years. Go fast in a straight line, carb, no A/c or power windows. Everybody have their own term of “muscle car” I’m not nic picking or anything but when someone gives up the carb because they can’t figure out how to adjust it, gives up and go efi. Why not learn how to adjust a carb? Be the only guy on the street that knows how to adjust a carb? Seems like the norm nowadays is to add modern stuff to old school muscle. I get it, some people lose a pair and add efi because they can’t stand or know how to maintain a carb or A/C because they can’t stand sweating on their way to the golf course, haha. In my area, you want to be different? Don’t be like everyone else and add all the modern stuff, keep it old school and you will really stand out. By the way, I buy Polyglas tires which is way more then 200 a tire. What’s your definition of a “muscle car”?:drinks:
Click to expand...

A lot of people appreciate art, but can't paint. Doesn't mean they shouldn't own art they like if they can afford it. There are many people in this hobby that don't work on their own car. So what? I don't get it when you say you don't have a problem with people doing whatever, then get in a dig about losing a pair. A/C? Many muscle cars came with A/C from the factory. Should those car owners grow a pair and rip it out? You don't like golf either? Not sure about your area, but the general norm for Mopars is not EFI. It may be growing, but is not the norm, thus, it's different. Coker has those F70 Wide Ovals for only $211, might save you a buck or two. My definition of muscle cars? For me it's an era, beginning in '64 and ending in '74. It was a time when the auto makers were creating bigger engines and increasing horsepower. That said, can a '78 Nova be a muscle car? It's not like a '69 SS396 Nova. But what if you drop in a 454? Lastly, this is a B-Body forum, not just a muscle car forum. Not everyone is looking for 10 second quarters.
 
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Guess you can’t take a joke? I apologize that I may offend some people. You nailed it when you said the general norm for mopars is not efi, that was my point. Everybody in my area are mostly Ford and Chevy people, the creatures that add efi. I understand this is a B-body forum, a site where people can disagree and agree. And a 10 second quarters beginning to sound like a “drag car”​
 
Scatpack said:
Guess you can’t take a joke? I apologize that I may offend some people. You nailed it when you said the general norm for mopars is not efi, that was my point. Everybody in my area are mostly Ford and Chevy people, the creatures that add efi. I understand this is a B-body forum, a site where people can disagree and agree. And a 10 second quarters beginning to sound like a “drag car”​
Click to expand...
I can take a joke, just didn't come across that way. Maybe it was the late hour. Best wishes, and remember, FORD backwards is DROF, which stands for Driver Returns On Foot.
 
451Mopar said:
I read that to run E-85 with the FiTech, you tell the computer that your engine is 30% larger than it really is and don't change the air/fuel ratio? Not sure if it is just looking at lambda values with the O2 and converting to a/f for gasoline?
I just got the FiTech running on gasoline. I may try E-85 in the future, but I would need a larger volume fuel pump.
Not many EFI computers are set-up to use a flex-fuel sensor. The sensor goes in-line with the fuel system and somehow can detect the amount of alcohol in the fuel? The Fast XFI 2.0 and Holley Dominator can be adapted to use the flex fuel sensor. Not sure about Mega-Squirt or others?
Click to expand...

this is interesting, all I would have to do is run the car down to almost out of gas, and change my handheld to run e85 , w/ my fast 2.0 set up. The 505" roller motor uses so much gas now , I couldn`t find gas stations that sold e85 close enough together ! LOL
Those muscle car tires don`t have enough bite for me to mess with.
 
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My ffv grand marquise runs very well off e85. It actually idles smoother and slightly lower rpm. On the highway I do notice about 2 to 3 less mpg, but around town it is very close to e10 mpg.
There's no such thing as a free lunch, but I do see some advantage to e85. No pinging higher octane, obviously less carbon build up, and somewhat home grown and renewable. Don't want it subsidized, but also would like to see more of it.
 
Billccm said:
My ffv grand marquise runs very well off e85. It actually idles smoother and slightly lower rpm. On the highway I do notice about 2 to 3 less mpg, but around town it is very close to e10 mpg.
There's no such thing as a free lunch, but I do see some advantage to e85. No pinging higher octane, obviously less carbon build up, and somewhat home grown and renewable. Don't want it subsidized, but also would like to see more of it.
Click to expand...

There is a guy I work with that has a BMW with an e85 tune and it is fast as lightning. He has to drive out to Dateland (45 miles) to fill up because Yuma has no e85 pumps lol.
 
No w
rlem1977 said:
I can take a joke, just didn't come across that way. Maybe it was the late hour. Best wishes, and remember, FORD backwards is DROF, which stands for Driver Returns On Foot.
Click to expand...
No worries, you don’t know a stranger until you actually communicate with them. I tend to be the funny guy and also growing up on a farm, I joke around with the guys that do city slickers kind of stuff, not to be taken seriously
 
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