440source

wyrmrider · Oct 8, 2018

wagon
it's easier to do with a SFT
iron rockers long valves or lots of lift should have B3
roller rockers require a B3 kit- head and valve length and lift dependent

gkent · Oct 8, 2018

Someone needs to learn to use punctuation !!

wagonman · Oct 8, 2018

wyrmrider said:
wagon
it's easier to do with a SFT
iron rockers long valves or lots of lift should have B3
roller rockers require a B3 kit- head and valve length and lift dependent

Thanks Wyrmrider. I have been reading the B3 info, lots and lots to digest but good reading. Now to put it all to good use. If I have Qs and I will, I will post up!

1967coronet440 · Oct 8, 2018

StreetWedge65 said:
For now, maybe not next week, we have 91oct ethanol free fuel. I need to decide which head I'm going with before I order the rotating assembly. The EZ 1's need a little freshening up. The Eddy's are ready to bolt on. Lots of compression options between a 75cc head and a 84cc head.

If they’re coming straight from Edelbrock they’re not ready to bolt on. Every head needs to be gone through before bolting on an engine.

StreetWedge65 · Oct 8, 2018

Well, I pulled the trigger today and ordered the 440source 470 assembly. I decided to use the Edelbrock heads I have on hand. They were freshened up last year. Should be ready to bolt on, but I'll double check them before installing.
Now the camshaft selection starts.

wagonman · Oct 9, 2018

StreetWedge65 said:
Well, I pulled the trigger today and ordered the 440source 470 assembly. I decided to use the Edelbrock heads I have on hand. They were freshened up last year. Should be ready to bolt on, but I'll double check them before installing.
Now the camshaft selection starts.

And the Race is on to see Who gets their 470 done first. Just kidding, good luck with the build and lets compare notes.

Challenger340 · Oct 11, 2018

Stanton said:
They get my vote. People will tell you to "have the balance checked" This is bullshit ... there is no such thing as "checking" balance - you either balance it or you don't. Trust their balance job - they do hundreds of these things.

We use LOTS of 440 Source Stroker Kits, both Customer supplied and when we bring them in for Customers.
The Pre-Balanced Kits WILL RUN and are acceptable for most applications.... NO doubt about that !

That said...
when we do NOT Check/Adjust the Parts & Check/Adjust/Re-Balance the Kits here....
it can be embarassing for us with Customers present and they ask about the very distinct vibration we feel on the Dyno Room concrete floor when revv'ing the Engine under load @ rpm ?

Which begs the question when Buying the "pre-Balance Kits ?
How does anybody "Balance" a Rotating Assembly(let be 440 Source or anyone else), and what type of "Balance" Job is it ?
When:
* NO Harmonic Balancer has been attached ?(certainly not the end users anyway)
* NO Timing Gear to space that Balancer out on the left plane(T-gears can vary up to .030 thickness)
* NO equalization of Piston/Pin weights (just an "average" is used I guess ?)
* NO equalization of Connecting Rod Big Ends or Total(top end) weights (just an "average" is used I guess ?)
* NO Flywheel/Flexplate is attached

It's called "stacking" a bunch of tolerances, a Gram or 3 here.... a Gram or 4 over there.... a Gram or 5 unknown ?... etc., etc

And therein is the what I will call the "misnomer" around the entire concept of Engine Balancing ?

There is Balancing..... and then there is Balancing....
Spinning Hundreds of Cranks to basically the same Bobweight, or even an "average" bobweight of parts in a particular kit is one type of ...I GUESS ? "Balancing" ?
just sayin....
IMO, it should NOT be confused with REAL Balancing of ALL PARTS and the customers parts attached, and the long term benefits therein to doing so.

gkent · Oct 11, 2018

Dampeners and flywheels are neutral balanced so they should not be necessary for a balance job. A set of forged and machined pistons should be extremely close in weight simply because of the forging/machining process. But go ahead, feel free to hype up your business.

IQ52 · Oct 11, 2018

Challenger340 said:
We use LOTS of 440 Source Stroker Kits, both Customer supplied and when we bring them in for Customers.
The Kits WILL RUN and are acceptable for most applications.... NO doubt about that !

That said...
when we do NOT Check/Adjust the Parts & Check/Adjust/Re-Balance the Kits here....
it can be embarassing for us with Customers present and they ask about the very distinct vibration we feel on the Dyno Room concrete floor when revv'ing the Engine under load @ rpm ?

Which begs the question when Buying the "pre-Balance Kits ?
How does anybody "Balance" a Rotating Assembly(let be 440 Source or anyone else), and what type of "Balance" Job is it ?
When:
* NO Harmonic Balancer has been attached ?(certainly not the end users anyway)
* NO Timing Gear to space that Balancer out on the left plane(T-gears can vary up to .030 thickness)
* NO equalization of Piston/Pin weights (just an "average" is used I guess ?)
* NO equalization of Connecting Rod Big Ends or Total(top end) weights (just an "average" is used I guess ?)
* NO Flywheel/Flexplate is attached

It's called "stacking" a bunch of tolerances, a Gram or 3 here.... a Gram or 4 over there.... a Gram or 5 unknown ?... etc., etc

And therein is the what I will call the "misnomer" around the entire concept of Engine Balancing ?

There is Balancing..... and then there is Balancing....
Spinning Hundreds of Cranks to basically the same Bobweight, or even an "average" bobweight of parts in a particular kit is one type of ...I GUESS ? "Balancing" ?
just sayin....
IMO, it should NOT be confused with REAL Balancing of ALL PARTS and the customers parts attached, and the long term benefits therein to doing so.

Hard to even think of disagreeing with this post. So, I won't. I highly respect and value your insight.

Stanton said:
Dampeners and flywheels are neutral balanced so they should not be necessary for a balance job. A set of forged and machined pistons should be extremely close in weight simply because of the forging/machining process. But go ahead, feel free to hype up your business.

Really? REALLY?? Interesting post. "should not be necessary", "should be extremely close". How do you know if you don't check?

..........and "hype up your business"?

Yeah. Moral outrage is my primary response anytime someone should hold themselves to a higher standard than I set for myself.

gkent · Oct 11, 2018

IQ52 said:
Really? REALLY?? Interesting post. "should not be necessary", "should be extremely close". How do you know if you don't check?

..........and "hype up your business"?

Yeah. Moral outrage is my primary response anytime someone should hold themselves to a higher standard than I set for myself.

Ok, so NOT necessary. Happy?

if you're familiar with the forging process and subsequent machining you'd know that the weights of a set of pistons would all be within acceptable limits. cast pistons ... different story, Getting things "perfect" is great for the $50,000. and up engine builds but if you're doing that for a street or mild race engine you're wasting the customer's hard-earned dollars.

Anyhow, its just an opinion.

StreetWedge65 · Oct 11, 2018

I agree (to a degree) with the previous post. Even though you buy a neutral balanced harmonic balancer and flex plate, are you sure it's balanced? Personally I've never had any issues with this. Much less viberating off the dyno! Now that being said, I do plan on having the rotating assembly checked before installing. Same process I've followed with Scat, Eagle, Indy and others.

Heimedw · Oct 11, 2018

I'm no engine builder but if any engine is putting out a vibration caused by internal components it's not long for this world! I have a friend that years ago did a very hot SBF for his fox body and years later had to put a new flywheel in the car and forgot it was balanced when he did the engine. Well after 250km with only a slight vibration at small window of rpm it destroyed all the main bearings no oil pressure!

Steve009 · Oct 12, 2018

I just finished assembling my 440Source 400/470 stroker kit. Everything went perfectly besides the stupid ARP studs (whole other story). I’m aiming for around 600-650hp. Everything looked to be great quality. My block was bored 30over and the pistons fit great.

wagonman · Oct 12, 2018

Good to hear it went together nicely. I have the ARP studs also. What was the issue? To long, hit the tray?

Steve009 · Oct 12, 2018

wagonman said:
Good to hear it went together nicely. I have the ARP studs also. What was the issue? To long, hit the tray?

Most of the studs were an ok length but the two on the end hit the tray. The annoying part is that ARP knows this and doesn’t change their kit to include two shorter studs. You have to call and they will send you two shorter ones for free.

69sunfireGTX · Oct 12, 2018

Heimedw said:
I'm no engine builder but if any engine is putting out a vibration caused by internal components it's not long for this world! I have a friend that years ago did a very hot SBF for his fox body and years later had to put a new flywheel in the car and forgot it was balanced when he did the engine. Well after 250km with only a slight vibration at small window of rpm it destroyed all the main bearings no oil pressure!

A Quality zero balanced flywheel is still a zero balanced flywheel. I doubt that was the cause of the failure. Chances are he had other problems.

Challenger340 · Oct 12, 2018

Stanton said:
Dampeners and flywheels are neutral balanced so they should not be necessary for a balance job. A set of forged and machined pistons should be extremely close in weight simply because of the forging/machining process. But go ahead, feel free to hype up your business.

With a 6-8 month waiting list, I don't need to hype anything.
But seeing as you are an 'expert", please enlighten us as to how many of those "nuetral balanced" Dampeners and Flywheels you personally have checked ?
I thought so...
now go back to auto comic books.

Challenger340 · Oct 12, 2018

Stanton said:
Ok, so NOT necessary. Happy?

if you're familiar with the forging process and subsequent machining you'd know that the weights of a set of pistons would all be within acceptable limits. cast pistons ... different story, Getting things "perfect" is great for the $50,000. and up engine builds but if you're doing that for a street or mild race engine you're wasting the customer's hard-earned dollars.

Anyhow, its just an opinion.

It can be quite common to see 3 to 4 grams lightest to heaviest in a set of 2618 Alloy Forged Pistons/Pins, 4032 Alloy same or more, but again as an expert in the field you should know that ?
so again,
how many sets of Forged Pistons have You Personally weighed in the last year as an obvious "expert" ?
Sets of 2618 vrs sets of 4032 ?

1967coronet440 · Oct 12, 2018

Challenger340 · Oct 12, 2018

Engine imbalance is parasitic to power production, and detrimental to longevity.
As I said,
the pre-balanced 440 Source Crank/Rod/Piston Kits will run, no doubt about that.

But that is not the same as saying the Engine Rotating/Reciprocating/attached Components have been weight matched and Crank Balanced accordingly.....
just...
that very simply the 440 Source supplied Crank ONLY, has been "balanced" to the averages of the supplied Pistons & Rods in the Kit.... That it, That's ALL !

People are free to run whatever they wish obviously, as long as they are not fooled by terminology as to "what" kind of Balance job they are running.

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