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Random no spark condition that defies common logic.

Kern Dog

Kern Dog

Life is full of turns. Build your car to handle.
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This situation doesn't happen often but when it does, it is really annoying. If I were half crazy, I'd think that I have Christine's cousin in my garage.
MOST of the time, the car lights up when I turn the key. Sometimes though, it cranks faster than usual and does not start. This happened Sunday when I wanted to pull the car out to work on another car.
The ignition switch was replaced in 2002. Everything else is newer than that. Distributor, coil, ECU, underhood wire harness, starter relay and starter. I modified the dash harness by bypassing the ammeter, running a continuous wire from the starter relay to the interior power junction similar to the MAD electrical guideline.
Years ago when trying to start a fresh rebuilt engine, I had a no spark. I changed the distributor and it started up. Over the years I have had it happen again and swapped in a different part, sometimes it was a coil or an ECU. It would then fire up and run fine. Oddly, these parts still worked when I used them on another car later. See what I mean about Christine? I have had a no-spark and tried Starting fluid just for kicks and sometimes it started and ran, sometimes nothing.
I always check for grounds, check for power to the coil, spark to the plugs but it really is as if the car just didn't want to start for no apparent reason.
I hate being the type of guy that just throws parts at a problem. Still, the only part that I have not replaced since this started is the ignition switch itself. I have plenty of originals here that I can plug in to test the next time this happens. I'll keep this in mind the next time this happens but in the meantime......Any suggestions??

IMG 303.JPG
 
Maybe this help maybe it won't , 15 days ago, my delivery van just die (1.8 vw engine ) no spark at all, check grounds, distributor, sparks plug wires, coil, nothing, no spark, change the ignition module, nothing, new distributor, nothing, I change 3 new distributor, nothing , am not that stupid regarding mechanics and no way 3 new distributor can fail , 2 new wire harnesses, and 2 ignition module, what it turns out to be, was a failure in one of the 5 volts line that suply the hall effect, this line was intermittently sending the 5 volts signal and the engine spurt and hesitate, I buy the original ignition module and problem solved, I hope this can help you Greg.
 
An intermittent break in the wire harness in the coil/ distributor area?
 
Dako said:
An intermittent break in the wire harness in the coil/ distributor area?
Click to expand...
That'd be my less than professional guess as well. Sounds like a wire is separating inside the insulation randomly
so that you don't see it.
Is it a temperature-specific event when it happens?
 
My guess is your loosing voltage either through a broken wire or loose connection. The fact that throwing parts at it sometimes fixed it tells me there's a good chance the problem is somewhere that your disturbing in the process? One thing you can try next time it happens is check the voltage at the coil while someone cranks it over, often in a situation like this you'll read 12V but as soon as you demand current the voltage will drop so you need to have someone crank it while your checking. I'll even throw a spark tester on a wire if it's intermittent so I can visually see when it is or isn't sparking while I'm probing around.
 
If im reading you correctly, it seems you are saying weak spark, that is maybe too weak at times. Not necessarily no spark. That's a beautiful car for sure. But if you aren't racing it (highest rev operation) then id bet it can squeak by and run fine as you say with a less than stellar ignition. My mom had a '65 Newport and a '74 Dart and neither of them ran well in the rain back in the heyday, for example. I'm sure you are much better at keeping up on a proper tuneup than my parents were. What type of ignition setup is it?? Id lean towards a shitty ignition box(s). if we are talkin mother mopar. And throw the darn ignition switch in if you have a spare just to be sure. Again, beautiful car, definitely enough to make us choir boys jealous. :moparsmiley: :usflag:
 
I didn't see any mention of the bulkhead connector?
(I put this one in every time someone has a starting issue)
Another possibility: the underhood harness has a bad connection or wire somewhere so when you work under the hood and replace a part you move the connection slightly, then it works. I'm kind of surprised it never quits?
Lefty is correct, seems as though the ignition modules are suspect these days. I've had two bad orange modules over the years.
One started and ran fine but the car would break up above 4,000. Took me all summer to debug it.
I finally tried a really old replacement module from National Auto that I had and it ran like a beast.
I hope you get it straightened out.
 
my approach was, star washers between all mounting points of the ignition module, voltage regulator and associated parts, grounds from the battery to body and to the block , back to the firewall directly between the VR and firewall , eliminate the distributor housing gasket for direct metal contact, the FULL madd bypass , all with bare metal contact points , but I also use the GM HEI module for ignition. double check all fuel lines and pump , and carb choke settings. check voltage in crank and start at the ballast resistor out of the switch.
 
WP29440SE said:
my approach was, star washers between all mounting points of the ignition module, voltage regulator and associated parts, grounds from the battery to body and to the block , back to the firewall directly between the VR and firewall , eliminate the distributor housing gasket for direct metal contact, the FULL madd bypass , all with bare metal contact points , but I also use the GM HEI module for ignition. double check all fuel lines and pump , and carb choke settings. check voltage in crank and start at the ballast resistor out of the switch.
Click to expand...
With the standard Mopar setup the distributor does not need to be grounded.
 
Sounds stupid, but, wire a light in the dash. Ground it and then power it by the different points you want to test. I would start with the Start feed from the Ign switch and if the car does not start and the light is on, you know that section is good.
 
So many places this crap can happen... For intermittent issues I always start with the 'jiggle test'. Next time it wants to act up, have your wife or someone turn the key while you start jiggling the wiring and connections starting at the battery and working your way through the starting system from there... so you can at least rule out loose or failing wiring.

Jiggle jiggle!!
giphy (14).gif
 
Derwud said:
Sounds stupid, but, wire a light in the dash. Ground it and then power it by the different points you want to test. I would start with the Start feed from the Ign switch and if the car does not start and the light is on, you know that section is good.
Click to expand...
If your going to do that I'd buy a cheap Voltmeter gauge, it'll tell you more than a light.
 
beanhead said:
So many places this crap can happen... For intermittent issues I always start with the 'jiggle test'. Next time it wants to act up, have your wife or someone turn the key while you start jiggling the wiring and connections starting at the battery and working your way through the starting system from there... so you can at least rule out loose or failing wiring.

Jiggle jiggle!!
View attachment 747863
Click to expand...
So what were we talking about:D
 
First up, THANK YOU for the nice words! I love this car and really want to drive it more.

I added a Mopar Performance electronic ignition setup before installing the first 440 in 2001. I've been through a few ECU spark boxes since then. I currently have the following:
MP Chrome ECU, .025 ballast resistor.
MP distributor and coil.
MP voltage regulator.
Evans wiring underhood harness.

I like the "jiggle test" idea. Its odd how when you are frustrated, simple solutions don't come to mind.
Each of these times that the car does not start, I do check for fuel. It has gas each time. I know it is not sparking because the engine spins over faster when there is no spark, almost an even rythm. Any normal time, it has a definitive fast/slow/fast/slow rotation when I start it.
It is not specific to cold weather, hot weather, rain or sun.
I have aftermarket gauges with a Voltmeter.
The bulkhead connector is original on the dash side. I have had the engine side out and cleaned the terminals. Again, the power feed to the interior is a new 8 ga, much thicker than stock and it runs through a drilled hole in the bulkhead connector with no spade connection. This problem happened before and after that change, though rarely after.
It may just be a matter of a loose connection as many have suggested.
 
Troubleshooting
Troubleshooting an electronic ignition system is fairly simple. Once it has been determined that there is no spark, there are a few quick checks that can be performed to determine the cause. A DC volt/ohm meter can be used to check the continuity of the pick-up coil. It can be checked at the leads as they leave the distributor, or on pins 4 and 5 of the ECU connector. When measuring the resistance across the two leads of the pick-up coil you should see a 150-900 ohm reading. Always flex the wiring leading to the distributor and to the ECU while checking the resistance to be sure that there are no breaks in the wiring. You should also check for 12 volts at pin 1 of the ECU connector when the ignition is in the "on" position. It is also important that the ECU be securely bolted in place and that bolts provide a good ground to the ECU housing. The only other lead that is connected to the ECU is the "-" lead to the coil, which can be checked to insure that it is not broken.

ignit1a.gif

Chrysler Electronic Ignition

The other important component of the electronic ignition system is the ballast resistor. It should be checked with an ohm meter and should have 1.2 ohms of resistance. Typically, a failure of the ballast resistor will result in the engine starting, but then dying as soon as the key is released from the start position. It is often handy to have a spare ballast resistor or ECU lying around to use for troubleshooting.

http://www.fourforty.com/techstuff/ignition.html
 
Hey KD, you wrote.
Sometimes though, it cranks faster than usual and does not start.
I know it is not sparking because the engine spins over faster when there is no spark, almost an even rythm.

A faster than normal cranking RPM is usually loss of compression.
Are you running a hydraulic cam? if so, is the oil pressure higher than normal when issue is present?
 
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