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440 build specs.......thoughts?

Mstone68440RR

Mstone68440RR

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I found a completely rebuilt ( 5+ years ago) never ran 440 local this weekend that I am interested in buying. Just curious what some more seasoned engine experts think of the motor based on specs provided below.

69 440 block
Hot tank and magged
Align hone mains
Bore, hone with torque plates .030 over
New cam bearings plugs
Mag, grind and balance crankshaft


516 heads

Competition valve job
Bronze guide liners
Hardened exhaust seats
Manly SS 2.14 intake valves
Manly SS 1.81 ex valves
Schneider hydraulics cam 264H 208 duration @ 0.50 lift ( stock steel rockers)
Schneider hydraulic lifters
Crowed dual springs and retainers
10 degree locks

ARP connecting bolt kit
ARP main stud kit
ARP head stud kit
ARP SS fastener kit
True roller timing set
TRW forged pistons ( TRW-L2355F30)
High volume oil pump
6 qt pan
Power coated Victor 440 intake
Powder coated Mopar valve covers
Powder coated water pump housing


Heading over tonight to review all receipts for parts in the build, said to total over $6k including labor charges

Info I find on the cam shows it to be a small block Chevy cam, so I don’t know what to think of that, could be a typo or? Should have more on that when a I get home.

Motor was supposed to have been built with performance in mind by the original owner. The guy who is selling it now got it in a package deal with a car he bought a few years ago.

Any thoughts on fair asking price and possible HP/TQ estimates? I’ll try to provide more details and pics when I get back, thanks
 
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Well for starters, obviously it isn't a SBC cam if it's installed in a 440...
 
Mstone68440RR said:
I found a completely rebuilt ( 5+ years ago) never ran 440 local this weekend that I am interested in buying. Just curious what some more seasoned engine experts think of the motor based on specs provided below.

69 440 block. good
Hot tank and magged. good
Align hone mains good
Bore, hone with torque plates .030 over good
New cam bearings plugs good
Mag, grind and balance crankshaft good


516 heads wouldn't be my head of choice.. Ok for a 383 but they have some of the most restrictive ports of any big block heads, however they have small closed chambers which can be a good thing depending on what pistons are used... A 440 will be running out of air by 4500-5000 RPM's Bigger valves are nice but don't fix restrictive ports... However down low which is where a street engine really spends it's time 516's will work fine & actually probably will make more torque down low..

Competition valve job. From here
Bronze guide liners
Hardened exhaust seats
Manly SS 2.14 intake valves
Manly SS 1.81 ex valves
Schneider hydraulics cam 284H
Schneider hydraulic lifters
Crowe dual springs and retainers
10 degree locks.

ARP connecting bolt kit
ARP main stud kit
ARP head stud kit
ARP SS fastener kit
True roller timing set. to here should be good
TRW forged pistons ( unknown spec). You really and I mean REALLY need to know which pistons.... It could be 8-1 compression ratio or it could be 13.5-1 compression ratio.... What ever it is the pistons are heavy... And with stock rods with who knows how many cycles on them... They have upgraded rod bolts which help buttttt...
High volume oil pump. From here
6 qt pan
Power coated Victor 440 intake
Powder coated Mopar valve covers
Powder coated water pump housing. to here is fine,,


Heading over tonight to review all receipts for parts in the build, said to total over $6k including labor charges

What was spent is irrelevant, if the choices made don't align with what you want, plus how long ago was it built, if more than a couple years I'd expect to be tearing it down.... At the very least the heads come off to measure the C/H of the pistons & the pan comes off to check bearings & get a look at the assembly lube to see if it's still viable...

Info I find on the cam shows it to be a small block Chevy cam, so I don’t know what to think of that, could be a typo or? Should have more on that when a I get home.

Schneider made cams for lots of good running Mopars so I wouldn't worry about that....

Motor was supposed to have been built with performance in mind by the original owner. The guy who is selling it now got it in a package deal with a car he bought a few years ago.

Which means he doesn't want to trust/use it so if you decide to go that way adjust your price accordingly

Any thoughts on fair asking price and possible HP/TQ estimates? I’ll try to provide more details and pics when I get back, thanks
Click to expand...

First hit the click to expand... I typed a bunch of stuff above not knowing it wouldn't be seen

If you want to roll the dice I'd start at $2500 & cap at $3000

With the 516 heads your not gonna make big HP and with no idea or C/R putting any number on it is just speculation.... I'd say more than 350 but certainly less than 450..

Torque should be 425-500
 
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I agree with wild rt. The 516s are smaller than 915/906, and who knows if the bowls were opened up properly for big valves?
And there are at least four different trw forged for a 440, from a domed 11 1/2,(really about 10 1/2, 10 3/4) to three flat tops up to .150 in the hole (about 7 1/2 to 1)
You need to know which piston is in it.
 
To answer in an a sort of bass-ackwards fashion. 13.0 @ 100mph in a 3500# car. And to echo the others, someone put too much work in '516 heads, and you should pray they are the Gods of Porting. Price sounds high, but would be nice with other heads, or a goldmine if they are really '518 heads. :praying: HTH, Lefty71
 
My thoughts are that if you plan to use pump gas in Southern CA, the compression ratio with iron heads should be below 10 to 1 to avoid detonation. I dealt with that problem for years and was too stubborn to pull the engine and replace the pistons. I went with thicker head gaskets. It is a crutch and not an optimal fix but it worked.
All the talk I read about how a big cam could build less cylinder pressure and eliminate the knocking COULD have worked but at what expense? What if it didn't knock but also didn't make any power under 4000 rpms? That would make a crappy street engine.
Some people are pretty adventurous about tearing down an engine, a trans or even a whole car. I am often hesitant to go the "Full Monty" but sometimes you have to do it.
You can trust an unknown build and it may turn out fine. Are you a lucky person?
With only 2 exceptions, I have only used 2 kinds of engines: Ones that were factory assembled and ones that I rebuilt and assembled myself. I have had good and bad luck with both.
A teardown and inspection will offer you some confidence that everything is right. Sometimes you catch a nut or bolt that wasn't properly torqued, a piston ring installed upside down on the piston, a rod and piston on the wrong side of the block, etc. **** happens even with professional builders in a shop.
 
@Lefty71 is an incurable optimist, 518s are 64 max heads. I can almost guarantee they won't be. If they are, you'll know.
516s are closed chamber, and will boost compression over open chamber heads, and give better quench. The question will be: too much compression?
But they also flow less than later heads, and a lot less than modern aluminum heads
Flow is power, more so than compression.
 
Probably the most important piece of info is the piston.

I would start with the presumption that the motor was done on a budget, and then look for evidence that it was not.

Things that make me question everything is things like "built 5+ years ago". So 40 years ago is 5+ right? Anyone doing a decent build 5 years ago would not use TRW pistons, or 516 heads. Why the main and head stud kits? What rocker arms are on it? Why a Victor intake? Things just don't add up quite right in my book. Just be cautious.

And like someone else said, even if it is a fair price, is it what you want? If it's not what you want, you may as well start from scratch.
 
BSB67 said:
Probably the most important piece of info is the piston.

I would start with the presumption that the motor was done on a budget, and then look for evidence that it was not.

Things that make me question everything is things like "built 5+ years ago". So 40 years ago is 5+ right? True... Anyone doing a decent build 5 years ago would not use TRW pistons, or 516 heads. Agreed Why the main and head stud kits? I meant to comment on that earlier, the build doesn't seem to justify it.. What rocker arms are on it? Very good question Why a Victor intake? Another good question, not a manifold that seems so match the combo... Things just don't add up quite right in my book. Just be cautious.

And like someone else said, even if it is a fair price, is it what you want? If it's not what you want, you may as well start from scratch.
Click to expand...

Hit the "Click to expand" Above..
 
Ok, I have some more info from the actual receipts and notes from the original owner. Turns out the motor was completed in 2004 as part of plans to build a vanishing point Challenger clone. Not sure why it was never completed, but I did know the current owner bought the car and a ton of parts roughly 4 years ago.

Pistons are TRW L2355F30 - Sealed power .030 over -4 valve relief (-7 cc) 10.17:1 compression ratio at 78.5 cc combustion chamber. Machine shop notes 76cc combustion chambers, so depending on head gasket possibly slightly higher compression ratio?

Cam specs were a typo, also located a Mopar 264H cam, which specs out at the following.

264 duration intake, 264 duration exhaust
intake duration @ .050 lift 208
Exhaust duration @ .050 lift 208
Intake valve lift .435 (1.5 rocker arms)
Exhaust valve lift .435 (.1.5 rocket arms)
Love separation 112
Rpm range 1800-4800 rpm

I would have to agree that the victor intake is not the correct manifold for this motor, the cam specs seem really weak, especially compared to a stock setup. Was the builder expecting the slightly higher compression to make up for the cam? I don’t have any real experience in building/selecting components but the cam choice coupled with the intake is a bit off IMO
 
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That engine will knock like the cops at a drug dealers house.
A small cam, iron heads and 10.5 compression??


Angry Chink.jpg
 
Tiny cam, about a point too much compression with iron heads for cat pee california gas.


Wow, Kerndog beat me by about two minutes. I type slooooowww.
 
How 'bout that angry dude's face? Really "sells" the point, right?
 
looks like machine shop cc'd the heads at 76 which sounds right
If ported or throats opened up and blended those closed chamber heads can work as well as any stock head and better than the open chambers
what do they say the deck clearance is
dbl check compression
you want 0.0 deck with a fel pro gasket or -.010 with the .028 mr gasket
that is lots of compression but you can make it with a good tune
would be easy with e-85
Kern dog is giving you the correct heads up
you might PM AJ/FormS over at the ABBO forum and have him run the dynamic compression numbers for you after you verify all the specs
I have D Dished those pistons to work with closed chamber heads There is a place in Texas that will do it inexpensively
IF that is a Mopar performance cam do you have the Part Number?
Remember MP cams are at .008 like Engle so it is more like a 270 size comp or lunati
even so it's small depending on what you want to do as far as rpm range + converter and gears
What's your usage?
you could build a broad rpm range engine masters type build with that cam
street with stock gears and converter or daily driver
truck, tow, motorhome
nice find
 
Well they chose the best piston option that TRW offered... But with iron heads your gonna be on the border of detonation, especially with that small cam....

Knowing what piston is in it helps & depending on your plans the heads could work, it might even have usable quench so it might not ping...
Built fifteen years ago, I would definitely take it apart, clean all the old assembly lube out & assemble it with new lube... You can probably use everything except a gasket kit & probably a different cam... If it's never been fired you might even be able to reuse the lifters...

I'd still low ball on it... Cause it virtually has to come apart..
 
Seems to me a fella could charge a premium for his rebuilt engine if he had the thing dyno'ed/tuned
and could offer the results with the unit, eh?
 
Okay. Good. Because it has the 2355s, I'd be interested.

If it were me, I would do this - 1) Offer him a price that is fair for the short block, he can keep the heads or you can sell them, but don't expect too much. 2) Get real clear on what you want, 3) Contact a trusted professional like Dwayne Porter, and discuss with him #2, and have him pick for you the right aftermarket aluminum heads and camshaft.

You can probably get the 516s to work, but you'll be compromising the whole way.

I'd still recommend that you at least do a partial tear down of the short block and check a few things.
 
Depending on how much you're going to drive it. 516's with larger valves and hardened exhaust seats have a short life expectancy. There isn't enough material under the seat area to hold up over the long haul.
If bowled out properly when the larger valves were installed, these heads will perform. I actually have a set of 516's and 915's and I like the 516's better.
 
Competition valve job was the only thing mentioned as far as I can see for what was done to the heads? That is not descriptive enough for me to pay good money for them. Just because someone spent too much money on bronze guides and enlarged valves/hardened seats doesn't mean you need too pass that value on. The heads may be ok if there was a porting bill with some serious hrs on them....516 take some experience to make them work...it does not sound like that is the case.
My question is....Wouldn't a experienced mopar builder warn the customer large valves in a 516 are not going to be a hp maker without massive amounts of port work? And then they put a 208 @ .05 cam in it....with a big victor single plain.....sounds like someone was building a poor running Chevy. Lol..

The short block is probably is ok with arp fasteners and balanced with 2355s, I would be concerned about enough oil clearance if that is unknown for a performance build.... the intake would be great for some aluminum heads...the cam I would put in my '75 monaco. Price I'd be less then 1/2 of his original investment.
919.jpeg
 
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