69hemibeep
Well-Known Member
I recently did an 22" radiator shroud brackets fan and clutch for a guy. I believe he got everything from Mancini but I did have to weld the brackets on, 4 small welds and it cools great in Phoenix
68 RR Needs Elect Pusher Fan
- Thread starter RRDon
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Ranger16
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I believe the clutch senses changes in air temperature and requires heat from the radiator to function properly........ without the shroud, the clutch thinks the radiator is cooler than it really is; therefore it wont engage
Needs to be bigger.
Should be a 18" with a 2 1/4" pitch with 7 blades
RRDon
Well-Known Member
I tested a brand new 180 deg thermostat before I installed it and it worked perfect. I'm convinced the problem is the smaller fan and the fan clutch combined with the lack of a shroud. I was hoping for a simple solution like adding an elect fan in front (I've seen it done sucessfully on other cars). Sorry if I seem frustrated with this issue. It's been a long road to get the car to this point and there's only a few last issues dogging me keeping me from driving the car. Besides that I'm getting to be a grouchy old bastard anyway ;))
tommytunes
Well-Known Member
Shroud is absolute necessary. Do the basics. Flush the system, change thermostat. Do you have the plate @ the bottom of the bumper going to the frame ? By the looks of your pics , air is going where it wants to and NOT through the rad ! I am not an advocate of electric fans, sometimes diverts air rather than directs it. Big rad with shroud should do it if you want to spend the $$$.
RRDon
Well-Known Member
Thanks, I already flushed system, new thermostat (checked 180), new water pump, radiator completely flushed and cleaned, all basic systems in good working order. Yes I have the plate to seal off bottom of bumper air.
RRDon
Well-Known Member
After giving careful thought to everyone's advice, I'm thinking about just ordering the fan shroud and mounting kit (almost $500) and see if that does the trick. But considering price maybe I should just buy a new radiator with shroud. Still thinking.
RRDon
Well-Known Member
What company would be best of buying a new radiator with matching shroud together?
AJ/FormS
Well-Known Member
From the Govier book, I see
2949035 listed as a 22", 69 C-body, 383/440. For a B-body, 22", I see
2949053, also 383/440. I don't know what the difference could be
Ima thinking a 22"rad was borderline for stock 383 application, with no shroud.
Check your vacuum advance operation. Below 30 mph, and with an automatic, the Rs are gonna be very low, and that means the Fanspeed is also gonna be very low. If the timing isn't up where it should be, then the mixture may not all finish burning in the chamber. That means the exhaust will be hotter and as it passes thru the exhaust port, it will heat the cooling system up as well.
Because of the low-rpm and no shroud;that 5blade fan is not gonna be enough for that 22" rad.
There is nothing wrong with running a clutch fan EXCEPT it has to be a THERMOSTATICALLY controlled one,; NOT viscous only, and the cooling system temperature has to get hot enough to turn the dang thing on.And the waterpump has to be moving the water.
Here's what I know works, cuz it took me a whole summer to get it sorted out; But it's a system. I cannot guarantee it will work for you if you don't use the whole list.
1) a 7 blade all-steel, vortex-tip , factory fan
2) a T-clutch off an early 2000s FORD Pick-up truck
3) a HD Hi-Flo waterpump with an anti-cavitation plate. (This has a bigger shaft to support that heavy 7-blade fan)
4) A hi Flo 180 or higher thermostat. (I use a 195)
5) An anti-collapse spring in the lower rad hose
6) a restricted bypass hose to stop most of the water from going back into the pump for a second go-around; use the heater as a bypass.
7) make sure the WP pulley diameter is NOT bigger than the crank pulley.
8) make sure the belt doesn't slip when the clutch kicks in
9) crank up the idle timing, speed up the mechanical advance curve, and modify your V-can for more and earlier advance. How much? As much as she'll take until she detonates and then back-up 2-3 degrees.
10) make sure the tubes in the rad are well able to flow water. and that the fins are properly attached and directed, and not plugged with debris.
11) make sure the coolant freeze-protection is not excessively high, anti-freeze is a lousy coolant. Pure water is nearly the best.
12) run a coolant expansion tank/recovery system.
13)make sure all the air hitting your rad is forced to go thru it, and not sneakind around,over or under it
14) reserved for in case I remember something else,lol
15) if you do all of the above, then any POS rad will work, and possibly without a shroud as well.
16) don't be thinking that 7-blade will suck all your power.
That clutch will only be needed at idle to perhaps 30 mph.
After 30 mph, Ram-Air will try to cool your engine to below the 180stat, but that hi flow stat won't let it go any cooler The fan-clutch may not engage until 205*, and until then,it is gonna be freewheeling costing you almost nothing. The faster you go, the more the coolant will try to go less than the stat, and the harder it will become to overheat her. If you get the speed up to IDK, say 120mph, now the engine is gonna be working hard, the coolant temp will rise, the stat will open and that bad-boy pump is gonna start earning it's keep. The clutch may engage, but IDK, probably not. I have never heard mine above 30mph,ever.
As to ignition timing;
Idle timing;
with a manual trans ;14 to 18 depending mostly on your cylinder pressure and altitude.
With an automatic 16 to 22, depending mostly on your stall, and as above.
Power-timing;
32 to 38, depending on the gas you use and the chamber design/material
Timing curve;
Idle-timing stable to idlespeed plus ~200rpm, then begins advancing; All-in by 2800 to 3600, depending on detonation onset.
V-can timing;
stockers are slow and anemic, sometimes as little as 9*
Your slow-cruise timing can be as high as 52* at 2200 rpm; that is all-together.
example;
Let's say you have 3.23s, and cruising at 22 mph;
in Drive, the Rs might be as low as ~900rpm, and the timing will be just the base timing, cuz the mechanical doesn't start advancing until 1000 rpm, and the V-can needs more throttle-opening to get going. So IIRC, the factory timing was maybe 5*, which is gonna be hopelessly retarded. Even 16* is not enough. So don't cruise at 2200 in Drive with 3.23s; put it in second.
In second 22mph might be ~1300rpm. Now your timing might be base 16* plus say 1* per 100rpm beginning at 1000=3*, plus the Vcan may be on line with 50% of it's available timing=4.5*; for a total of 16+3+4.5=23.5.... which is still not enough, but waaaaaay better than 5*,lol. I would modify the stops on the Vcan and crank it up to maybe 18*. At 50% this will get you another 4.5* for a total now of 28*, still not enough, but about as good as it gets.
How do you know when the cruise-timing is enough?
Easy; put a timing lite on it, crank the idle speed up to say 2200, then with the Vcan plumbed to the spark-port, begin adding timing. Start at 35*, and reset the speed back to 2200; then add 5* and reset the rpm. Repeat until the rpm no longer rises, then go back to the previous setting. The timing that you are at now is what she likes at 2200 with no-load. I bet you get more than 40*, maybe more than 50*, maybe as high as 55*!
Ok but that was with no load.
What about while driving? It really depends on the load,the AFR, and the stall.
The higher your gears are (smaller numbers), the larger will be the load on the engine, and vice-versa, the bigger the gear number is, like 4.30s, the easier will be the load on the engine.
The less the load, the more the timing can approach the optimum; and the greater the load, the less timing the engine will tolerate.
Some guys are able to run 42*@2200 cruising, some run 48*, and some like myself have run 52*@2200.... or more....... IIRC, TrailBeast on FABO runs similar numbers, maybe a tad more.
2949035 listed as a 22", 69 C-body, 383/440. For a B-body, 22", I see
2949053, also 383/440. I don't know what the difference could be
Ima thinking a 22"rad was borderline for stock 383 application, with no shroud.
Check your vacuum advance operation. Below 30 mph, and with an automatic, the Rs are gonna be very low, and that means the Fanspeed is also gonna be very low. If the timing isn't up where it should be, then the mixture may not all finish burning in the chamber. That means the exhaust will be hotter and as it passes thru the exhaust port, it will heat the cooling system up as well.
Because of the low-rpm and no shroud;that 5blade fan is not gonna be enough for that 22" rad.
There is nothing wrong with running a clutch fan EXCEPT it has to be a THERMOSTATICALLY controlled one,; NOT viscous only, and the cooling system temperature has to get hot enough to turn the dang thing on.And the waterpump has to be moving the water.
Here's what I know works, cuz it took me a whole summer to get it sorted out; But it's a system. I cannot guarantee it will work for you if you don't use the whole list.
1) a 7 blade all-steel, vortex-tip , factory fan
2) a T-clutch off an early 2000s FORD Pick-up truck
3) a HD Hi-Flo waterpump with an anti-cavitation plate. (This has a bigger shaft to support that heavy 7-blade fan)
4) A hi Flo 180 or higher thermostat. (I use a 195)
5) An anti-collapse spring in the lower rad hose
6) a restricted bypass hose to stop most of the water from going back into the pump for a second go-around; use the heater as a bypass.
7) make sure the WP pulley diameter is NOT bigger than the crank pulley.
8) make sure the belt doesn't slip when the clutch kicks in
9) crank up the idle timing, speed up the mechanical advance curve, and modify your V-can for more and earlier advance. How much? As much as she'll take until she detonates and then back-up 2-3 degrees.
10) make sure the tubes in the rad are well able to flow water. and that the fins are properly attached and directed, and not plugged with debris.
11) make sure the coolant freeze-protection is not excessively high, anti-freeze is a lousy coolant. Pure water is nearly the best.
12) run a coolant expansion tank/recovery system.
13)make sure all the air hitting your rad is forced to go thru it, and not sneakind around,over or under it
14) reserved for in case I remember something else,lol
15) if you do all of the above, then any POS rad will work, and possibly without a shroud as well.
16) don't be thinking that 7-blade will suck all your power.
That clutch will only be needed at idle to perhaps 30 mph.
After 30 mph, Ram-Air will try to cool your engine to below the 180stat, but that hi flow stat won't let it go any cooler The fan-clutch may not engage until 205*, and until then,it is gonna be freewheeling costing you almost nothing. The faster you go, the more the coolant will try to go less than the stat, and the harder it will become to overheat her. If you get the speed up to IDK, say 120mph, now the engine is gonna be working hard, the coolant temp will rise, the stat will open and that bad-boy pump is gonna start earning it's keep. The clutch may engage, but IDK, probably not. I have never heard mine above 30mph,ever.
As to ignition timing;
Idle timing;
with a manual trans ;14 to 18 depending mostly on your cylinder pressure and altitude.
With an automatic 16 to 22, depending mostly on your stall, and as above.
Power-timing;
32 to 38, depending on the gas you use and the chamber design/material
Timing curve;
Idle-timing stable to idlespeed plus ~200rpm, then begins advancing; All-in by 2800 to 3600, depending on detonation onset.
V-can timing;
stockers are slow and anemic, sometimes as little as 9*
Your slow-cruise timing can be as high as 52* at 2200 rpm; that is all-together.
example;
Let's say you have 3.23s, and cruising at 22 mph;
in Drive, the Rs might be as low as ~900rpm, and the timing will be just the base timing, cuz the mechanical doesn't start advancing until 1000 rpm, and the V-can needs more throttle-opening to get going. So IIRC, the factory timing was maybe 5*, which is gonna be hopelessly retarded. Even 16* is not enough. So don't cruise at 2200 in Drive with 3.23s; put it in second.
In second 22mph might be ~1300rpm. Now your timing might be base 16* plus say 1* per 100rpm beginning at 1000=3*, plus the Vcan may be on line with 50% of it's available timing=4.5*; for a total of 16+3+4.5=23.5.... which is still not enough, but waaaaaay better than 5*,lol. I would modify the stops on the Vcan and crank it up to maybe 18*. At 50% this will get you another 4.5* for a total now of 28*, still not enough, but about as good as it gets.
How do you know when the cruise-timing is enough?
Easy; put a timing lite on it, crank the idle speed up to say 2200, then with the Vcan plumbed to the spark-port, begin adding timing. Start at 35*, and reset the speed back to 2200; then add 5* and reset the rpm. Repeat until the rpm no longer rises, then go back to the previous setting. The timing that you are at now is what she likes at 2200 with no-load. I bet you get more than 40*, maybe more than 50*, maybe as high as 55*!
Ok but that was with no load.
What about while driving? It really depends on the load,the AFR, and the stall.
The higher your gears are (smaller numbers), the larger will be the load on the engine, and vice-versa, the bigger the gear number is, like 4.30s, the easier will be the load on the engine.
The less the load, the more the timing can approach the optimum; and the greater the load, the less timing the engine will tolerate.
Some guys are able to run 42*@2200 cruising, some run 48*, and some like myself have run 52*@2200.... or more....... IIRC, TrailBeast on FABO runs similar numbers, maybe a tad more.
Last edited:
HOG RANCH
Well-Known Member
I had 2
I had 2 fan clutches that where bad out of the box, they where hd units for an rv. a shroud is supposed to be there. you don't have diddly flowin thru your core, or your core could be clogged up, an need to be rodded out. at any rate you need good airflow at low speed. your rr is identical to the one I purchased in 1968, I spent 714 bucks more for the hemi. paper thin carpet an a taxi cab bench seat.
RRDon
Well-Known Member
I just ordered these two items. Hopefully that will do the trick but we'll have to see happens. Thanks.
jim94746
Member
i thought same but look real hard at fan shrouds. I emailed Tony’s Mopar and he refereed me to Dantes Mopar Parts. I bought fan shroud and side brackets. The little clips on side just popped in and whole job done in under and hour. I did have to pull and reinstall fan blade. Overall still clean, clutterless, safer and cooler. They offer two so measure radiator. The push fan really takes away the factory look in my opinion
RRDon
Well-Known Member
Turns out the mounting brackets & clips I ordered will not work on my radiator. Apparently no products available to attach a shroud to this particular radiator. I'm just going to buy a new direct fit radiator from Cold-Case complete with shroud and fan. They now make them with OEM style tanks to maintain that close to original look.
RRDon
Well-Known Member
Also I want to thank everybody who contributed to this thread. I know some of you guys spent some considerable effort to provide useful information. Thanks again. RRDon
RRDon
Well-Known Member
Cold Case Radiator kit Ordered from Summit. Will paint it black before installation.
Stroker68
Well-Known Member
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