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727 drivetrain loss

Paul Secoy

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Hello all, I notice the 14% drivetrain loss used in many of the ET calculators online, but have heard 20% mentioned by users of the 727 auto. Does the 727 really suck up 6% more power than an average automatic? It would be great to hear from anyone who has had their engine dynoed, and then chassis dynoed. I'm interested in all opinions.

Thanks
 
In 2004 or 2005 I had my '70 Charger tested on a dyno.
440 based 493, Edelbrock aluminum heads, 2" headers, MP '509 cam, 727 with a "3000" stall converter and it clicked off a 369 HP number.
To me, that is not impressive. Look at the late model Hemi cars. The super efficient automatics in new cars have a fraction of the losses that the 727 had. Stock HP for automatic Hemi cars are in the 370 range and it is not unusual to see a chassis dyno register a 340 HP number at the tire.
The 727 does eat power.
 
Unless you have a back to back test on an engine then chassis dyno you can't really know. Even better would be back to back engine/chassis dyno runs with an auto and 4 speed, identical cars with same tires, diff ratios etc. I wonder what engine horsepower they use as a baseline for the percentage loss and at what revs. Is the loss linear or does it increase with revs. 20% sounds huge, on a 500 hp engine your talking 100hp! The percentages are generalisations and often don't make sense. If the same 727 was then bolted to a 250hp engine then does it now suck 40% or is it still 20% and now only 50hp loss?
 
727, th400, and c6 all use up more power than their little brother transes. For our vintage musclecars, i heard that the C6/nine inch ford was the worst, tho I have seen reports of big block buick/4L80 losing 25%.
With a street/strip converter, i automatically assume 20% drivetrain loss for an automatic transmission car.
And 66 Sat asks some very good questions, for which I have NOT found answers. I think it is a function of drivetrain components and size/strength.
Also a function of rpm. If you take an engine that makes 350hp at 5000 rpm, and modify it so that it now makes 500hp at 7000 rpm, I'm sure that drivetrain loss goes up, but how much, or by what percentage?
 
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This article seems to be pretty good and explains it quite well
http://www.superstreetonline.com/how-to/engine/modp-1005-drivetrain-power-loss

I often wonder at how much the actual loss is then countered by the momentum of the spinning components themselves (which the article seems to back-up), and therefore how much real-world horsepower is being lost. My ride-on mower is a Walker, quite complex with 2 gearboxes, hydraulic drive, belts everywhere driving the wheels and blades. It's a 16hp Kohler engine, and you definitely feel the loss when the blades kick in or if you're cutting long grass, but it still gets along pretty good, even with a full grass catcher. It never stalls when cutting, even in long grass, so the loss can't be greater than 16hp even under those conditions. Maybe it's 50%, so 8 hp.
 
Thanks for the link, it really looks like there are no hard and fast answers. I guess I'll just turn it up until I see my wheel HP numbers where I want them. :)
 
These discussions can be fun, but understand that trusting one dyno number is a stretch, let alone two. Let's pretend for a minute that the engine dyno is correct. Big assumption. Then you go to a Dynojet chassis dyno. Then you go to a Mustang dyno. Without a doubt those two chassis dynos will have very different results. People will debate all day long which is correct. The difference is easily enough to be the 15% or 20% loss difference. Now add the variability between engine dynos (i.e. a lot of happy dynos out there) and it really becomes a bit meaningless IMO. Said differently, you're trying to determine if the power loss is 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, or 20%. But you're tools for measuring power can be off 5% themselves.

Dynos are tuning devices. You really should not look at it as anything more.

FWIW, from engine dyno to chassis dyno, my 508 power loss was 20.5%.

The only numbers that matter to me are 11.68 @ 120.2 mph and 4150#. You want to call it 200 hp, I really don't care. 10% loss or 25% loss, I don't care. You call it 600 hp, I call you nuts.
 
I recall reading that engines built to similar specs as mine was way back then. Mopar Performance had a 440/500, a 4.15 stroke engine that had iron heads and was rated at 500 hp. Their step up was a 440/525 which was essentially the same but with aluminum heads and 1.6 ratio rocker arms. Both used the same 292/509 cam like what I was using. If my engine was approximately 520 HP at the crank and 369 to the wheels, that is a 29 % loss! That seems far out of the realm of what is sensible. I wonder if the engine HP # is optimistic and the chassis dyno is stingy ?
I agree that the only way to know is to do back to back tests after a change to a 4 or 5 speed. I am considering a swap to the Tremec 5 speed so this would be a good time to test the theory.
 
I'm a skeptic. I almost dont believe any dyno numbers, especially chassis dyno numbers with auto transmissions. Hot rod, a few years ago did five different chassis dynos in a two day period, with a blown shelby mustang with a six speed stick, and got a variance of over a hundred horsepower ftom best to worst.
If a dyno is repeatable, its a wonderful tuning tool, but too many seem to get hung up on a number that can be fudged by an unscrupulous operator (NOT referring to you Kern!).BSB67 is dead right. If you have a car set up for the strip, mph versus weight will tell you how much power you have. And maybe, even if you dont.
 
And @Kern Dog , chassis dynos are notoriously inaccurate with powerful auto trans cars, btween tire slip and torque converter slip, they can be not much more than an educated guess.
Chassis dyno operators dont generally want to tell you that, it makes selling dyno time harder.
 
I'm not a drag race guy so testing by means of 1/4 mile times isn't likely to happen. I could visit the nearby track but I understand that they require an external cutoff switch for trunk mounted batteries and I'm not going to drill holes in the back of my car to do that!
 
Different manufacturer's chassis dynos produce different results which has been well documented over the years. Not much issue with 3-speed automatics but on stick cars, just the gear they run in on the chassis dyno power pull makes a considerable difference.
 
I'm not a drag race guy so testing by means of 1/4 mile times isn't likely to happen. I could visit the nearby track but I understand that they require an external cutoff switch for trunk mounted batteries and I'm not going to drill holes in the back of my car to do that!
 
The rod at the bottom of the pic goes thru a 1/8" hole next to the license plate. Knob and rod can be unscrewed. The cable on mine goes to a lever on the cage.
Doug
0203131657.jpg
 
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