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My mild 440 build. Step 1.

From what you described....If you don't have much cylinder taper, (need to measure like what has been mentioned) I think you can easily get to your hp goals with the stock cast pistons. If your pistons have a dish....cc them and the 452s and use a compr. Calc..... you will have a better idea what you need for a cam. You can machine a few things and raise the compression some. I would not be afraid of ceaning up the valves and seats your self....you don't need fancy tools...Before we had a valve/seat grinder we did it all the time. You will learn a lot if you do it yourself....and I don't think you will have any trouble with advice around here. If you have a good solid motor to start with and so far it sounds like it....nothing wrong with saving some money and freshening it up. Now if you said 400hp...I would advise differently.
 
Mark1972 said:
The deck height numbers were interesting. If I used number 8 cylinder as the zero point because it was lowest, then this is what I got:
8) 0.000
2) +.008"
1) +.007"
7) +.013"
Click to expand...
Usually this number is relative to the top of the block.
It's not clear, where was #8? Even with the deck?
 
Sorry, let me clear this up. When rotating the crank with the #1,8,2, and 7 pistons reinstalled(without rings), the number 8 piston came up the highest relative to the height of its cylinder, or top of the block if that makes more sense. The other measurements were how much lower those pistons came up relative to the respective height of the block, or in other words, how much higher the deck of the block is at those locations compared to the tops of those pistons. My apologies. Engine lingo isnt my strong suit yet. I will check taper of the cylinders this afternoon after the heads are apart.
 
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Measured the cylinders as suggested. Taper per cylinder below:
1) .0004" 2) .0008"
3) .0008" 4) .0002"
5) .0003" 5) .0005"
7) .0008" 6) .0003"

Something else. This is pure speculation, but I think someone has been in this engine before. The obvious parts like red silicone on valve cover and oil pan gaskets. They even got red silicone on a couple of rockers. Also, not sure what valve seals should look like once they've got miles on them, but these look new. I can still read the part number. 4071003 95280A 110. I dont know how many miles were on this motor. Judging by the wear I would say not many. Well, it's off to the machine shop tomorrow for hot tanking, test for cracks and pressure test. I'm hoping for the best. As far as cleaning up the valves and seats, and CC'ing, any links to videos or instructions would be great.
 
If you stay with the 452 heads, LOTS of power & torque gained from "pocket porting". Grinding the lip below the valve seat out to approximately the diameter of the valve job bottom cut produces great results, even for a smaller cam, lower RPM motor. If you use a "race" machine shop to do the valve job, they may use a deep high angle cutter to do the "porting". Also measure the head chamber cc's, the actual deck(from deck surface to top of piston) & calculate with the compression distance of the piston you will use. 9.0 to 9.5 actual measured CR should work well with pump gas & iron heads. You block & crank seem to be great. Cam selection still seems a mystical art. Fairly short duration & higher lift will help with power if you do the heads properly.
 
Don Frelier said:
Usually this number is relative to the top of the block.
It's not clear, where was #8? Even with the deck?
Click to expand...

These '77 Motorhome 440's are notoriously low compression engines using the stock Pistons, which if usable Torque is what you are after ?
I would highly suggest some reading up on actual Dynamic Compression Ratios with any aftermarket Camshaft contemplated, given the most probably 7.8:1 "static" Compression Ratio you are dealing with on the Pistons being 1/8th inch down from the decks at TDC.

Not uncommon when we square up 440 Block Decks here on our Block Mill to .010" variance "end to end" front to back, or from side to side one deck to the other.
 
Challenger340 said:
These '77 Motorhome 440's are notoriously low compression engines using the stock Pistons, which if usable Torque is what you are after ?
I would highly suggest some reading up on actual Dynamic Compression Ratios with any aftermarket Camshaft contemplated, given the most probably 7.8:1 "static" Compression Ratio you are dealing with on the Pistons being 1/8th inch down from the decks at TDC.

Not uncommon when we square up 440 Block Decks here on our Block Mill to .010" variance "end to end" front to back, or from side to side one deck to the other.
Click to expand...

Not sure OP said it was a "motor home" motor, but point well taken, '77 motors will have very low CR. New pistons with the proper compression distance are required to get to 9.0-9.5 CR along with chamber CC checking(most likely milling) & proper head gasket thickness selection. Milling the deck .010 would be a minimum for me to get it square. Good power & torque is still in the pocket porting & camshaft selection.
 
Thanks for the info. This 440 came out of a '77 New Yorker, and has the cast crank and specific external balancer. I just got back from the machine shop and dropped everything off. The first order of business is to check the block, heads(452's),crank, and rods to see if they are usable. If you look back in this thread you will see my measurements. Everything looks ok but after pressure testing and giving everything a look over, they will let me know what is good and what isn't. Assuming the parts are good, they will let me know what they suggest for machining. Then the conversation will turn to the pistons, cam, etc for my goals, which are pretty reasonable. Thank you again for all and any tips and advice.
 
What works with that combination is a [email protected]
short Lunati Voodoo
Shortest Howards (not streetfarce) with a 15 in the notes column of the catalog
I think 255 (must be put together professional, it is a rapid ramp cam)
Mike Jones torque cam custom
all will work with stock rockers and pushrods but suggest new
roller rockers will require a B3 kit and pushrods so factor that in if tempted for the waste of money for roller tip rockers for your build
If you change pistons post back
I would not spend many $$$ on those heads but then you are looking at heads and pistons to make a better combination than what you have
costs creep rapidly
see the last few posts in the 318 cam stickie in FABO
 
Mark1972 said:
Then the conversation will turn to the pistons, cam, etc for my goals, which are pretty reasonable. Thank you again for all and any tips and advice.
Click to expand...

A lot of cart before the horse posting going on.

Suggestion. Between now and the time you're ready to start making decisions, get really really clear on: #1 your budget, #2, you budget, #3 plan/goal for the car, and finally #4, your budget....
 
Appreciate the heads up. The budget was discussed with the shop, along with my goal for the engine. I wont get into financials on the forum as that can simply open up a huge discussion that goes off on a tangent from the original topic. I will say that the shop is aware that I am building then engine, and that other than installing the cam bearings and doing the machining, the rest is all me. They said they are happy to work with me knowing it's my first engine rebuild. As far as engine power and torque, and what I'm hoping to achieve, that was stated earlier in the thread. I dont think planning ahead is a bad thing. I certainly like hearing from people who have been where I'm at.
 
note these are SBM part numbers you have to look up BBM yourself- just for comparison

Vdoo 10200701 250/262# 213/220 454/275 108 LCA 1,000-5,500
(IC about 49 ABDC @.006 Makes great dynamic compression but more overlap/ worse idle/ less vacuum- but with this short duration should be OK

Jones 254 @.006 # .458 lift shortest actual seat to seat timings @.002 of any of these cams, gentle on the close any LCA
howard 255/261# 208/214 .479/.494 110LCA 1400-4800 128@200 IC about 53 ABDC
Vdoo 10200700 259/256# 208/213 454/454 112 LCA 1,400-5,700 IC about 59ABDC

DC 260 is 269 degrees @.006#
Jones is 50% bigger at .275 than DC 260 where it counts eventhough Mopar Performance cams is 15 degrees more duration at .006
Jones would be custom ground with exhaust lobe to match headers etc and LCA matched with goals
Note how the three shelf cams widen the LCA as duration increases to try and keep Intake Close early
and 4 degrees does make a difference

see https://www.forabodiesonly.com/mopar/threads/cams-for-318s.421901/page-5 for more details - like the duration for movement from .004 to .006 is for both flanks...
 
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So it's been a while since I've posted anything new about my 440 build. This is a small update. The block and heads were hot tanked and checked for cracks, and pressure tested. All good. The rods were inspected and found needing resizing, new bolts, and of course balancing. The crank needs a .010" grind, and balancing but other than that, is fine to use. The heads have not been inspected further at this time. The block will get a .030" over bore, align boring, and decking. The rods will be replaced with new units. Considering the work needed to get the original rods up to spec, it's a small extra cost. Next up will be inspecting the heads to see exactly what work is required. It appears there had been work done on the heads before the motor came out of the car, as there was red silicone on a couple of rockers. I'm already figuring on a valve job, and probably milling the heads for straightness, if they are out more than .004". Apparently it doesn't take much work to get the spending up on head work, depending on how far you want to go. Because of my reasonably low expectations for power for this motor, I'm hoping that maybe some port matching to the intake, and mild porting will be all that's required. I spoke briefly with the machine shop about pistons, and they like the Keith Black hypereutectic pistons. The goal will be to keep compression in the 9-9.3/1 range without going over. There has been no talk about camshafts yet, but for what it's worth I have decided to run headers. There is already a new 2.5" dual exhaust in the car with Flowmaster 40 Series mufflers. There is no hurry on the engine work as it will be May before the engine gets assembled. By then I will have more updates and questions for you much more experienced folks. I am curious about some opinions on carb and distributor though. I hope everyone had a great Thanksgiving. All the best.
 
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I would not spend money on port matching
I would blend the bowls after the pro valve job
I would not do roller tip rockers- no bang for the buck
I helped design the KB quench dome pistons so I think they are the answer
get your quench under .040
cc all 4 end chambers and mill to equalize if you have to mill- also to set quench
you have two gasket choices the .028 Mr gasket and the thicker ones
figure your compression both ways and post back
aftermarket rods are usually pretty close- check b4 you spend money on balancing the rods
the KB are lighter so you may want to reballance but many report that they work fine as is
once you get your compression and can estimate head flows you can think of cam
 
Great info. Thank you. The port matching I was referring to would be done by myself. I wouldn't pay a machine shop for that part. When I get more info, I'll post It. Thanks again.
 
If you do get the heads milled, you also need the intake face on the head milled, or you'll have problems bolting on the intake. I believe it is for every .010 head milling, you mill the intake face .012.
 
Depending on the cost to do the heads, look at the Edelbrock E-Street head. If your looking for a more stock look, the 440 Source Stealth heads.

If keeping the stock heads and mild setup, I have been looking at this Lunati High Efficiency cam, 265/277 advertised, 216/228 @ 0.050"
#10210241LK $227.78 for cam and lifters.
The Voodoo series cams are also pretty decent.
 
According to the DC Bible, cylinder head milling: remove .0042 for each CC of volume reduction & for each .010 of head surface removed, remove .0123 off the intake face. The 452's would likely be in the 88+ CC range before milling. Do the CC checking 1st then play with the math on paper to arrive at the CR you desire considering the piston/deck height, piston valve notch and or dish volume, head CC's, head gasket thickness. Discuss with the machine shop.

You may find aftermarket heads are really more cost effective. Aluminum will want/tolerate more CR.
 
If your just doing a clean up cut for the block and heads, you do not need to mill the intake side.
 
the lunati high efficiency cams are universal masters (i.e.work in a small base circle buick or sbc)
The Voodoo series uses Mopar Lobes
compare the duration and lifts -Uh no comparison
pick the duration for the rpm range you want, then get as much "area under the lift curve" that you can
 
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