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Hy-Lift Johson Variable Duration Lifters - Do they work?

good comments as usual rumble
Back to springs
Howard has a cam on each side of the durations and lifts of the Hughes - let's call it the straw man cam cuz I'm not sure it's the right onesxt5t xs
273/277 226/230 525/531
???????? 228/232 530/536
277/283 230/236 531/547
Howard recommends their 78438 spring (you could also check PAC and PRI and Lunati has good prices on springs as does Erson and Chet Herbert (report
1.465 od dual
122 @1.650
353 @1.100
a bunch of difference
so you must
measure your installed height (and are your heads preped for dual springs and cut for viton seals(
figure the spring rate of both springs in lbs per inch
figure your closed and open pressures
If the howard does not need 155 lbs neither does the Hughes
Ill bet you could go to the Howard lobe master list and find the hughes lobes right in the middle of the Howards
you might want to get your cam and springs from howard and eliminate the middleman unless they are providing special services
(Just the opposite of buying heads direct from Indy)
you might check out beehive springs and retainers and if you are getting new valves go 11/32 weight on the valve side makes a big difference
get the tool to instll the inners in the car after you break in the cam
Don;t get spoiled, Corona bought you the time to look it up- next time you do it and you could chech Howards lobe catalog
 
Rumblefish360 I agree with you that the entire combo should be looked at to decide is a variable duration lifter is needed. Heavy car with a stock stall and 2.76s, sure. 3000 stall and 3.55 with mech brakes and wanting a ruff idle. No

The cam profile does make a different in the way all these perform. I know of a Bullet profile that has 300* at .006” tappet and 234* at .050”. Compare that to a Lunati voodoo with 704 with 276*adv ([email protected]) and also 234* at .050”. The Variable duration lifter removes almost twice the seat timing off the 300* Bullet. A lifter set up for .020” is coming off the base circle and moving the tappet .013” with 1.5s before it really tries opening the valve. As it pumps up at 1500 rpm it roughly spits that in half, the Voodoo now is being effected very little, but that lazy Bullet profile the variable effect is still big. To further illustrate the difference in profiles let’s now use a 1.8 rocker arm on that 300* Bullet profile. Now the variable cam timing effect is night and day different, it just changed more than 20% from just the rocker switch.

A mopar grind like the Hughes as I recall has an intensity of about 47* from .006” to .050” tappet. A XE comp has 44*. That Bullet has 66*. The Hughes is going to act similar to the XE.

We have played with the vmaxs, lashing them to almost zero hot lash to as high as .030”. At .030” you can make a hot street cam idle like a 2 bbl. There are even solid cam profiles run very well with a vmax. You can lash the vmaxs from .005-.040” and a vpro .005-.030”. A original or the hi lift Johnson you have no control over what they do. I really like the adjustability of v series lifters!

A cam like a XE274 comp has a lifter rise of .001” per degree at about .005-006” tappet lift. Many cams do no hit that velocity until .010” tappet lift. Once the tappet hits those velocities the cam is only loosing 1* per .0015” of lash out at the valve with a 1.5 rocker. With a original type Rhoads and a cam like a xe comp they are effecting the seat timing around 11* at a idle if the lifter is set up to remove .020” at the valve on the valve opening, slightly more on the closing. At half the pump up rate that is cut in half down to a 5.5* at 1500 on the seat timing and maybe 2* at .050”. Fairly modest improvement in idle or vaccuum compared to some other profiles.
 
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@Dodge Bros

Good illustration. However, how much the effect takes place on the effect of the cam is a lobe dependent item but does it in any way minimize, negate or nullify the effect the lifter is having in reducing the duration. It is what it is because it is mechanical.

I like the usage of an altered rocker ratio. Below is the current set up being worked on on my 5.9.

A stock ‘00-5.9 topped with a 750 Edelbrock AFB & RPM & Hooker Super Comps (1-3/4) backed with a 2500 stall/727 to 3.55 cogs on 26-1/2 tires. JY distributor and chrome box/Accel coil fired.

A good combo for what it is. The car is lightened slightly in addition. It’s under 3600lbs. (FWIW)

(old parts being out to use....)
A Crane Hyd @ 236/.497-108 is going to get used. With the 1.5 - 1.6 rocker change, the new lift is .530. Pac springs are being used on the OE Magnum heads which are getting a slight decking to insure straightness and a basic home porting or nothing more than a bowl hog, a laying down or the short turn radius, port widening and gasket match. EZ home stuff.
(Not looking for a compression ratio increase)

This is to much duration for the 2200 converter.
Playing with the pushrod depression of the lifter varies the amount of duration cut. The less the lifter is depressed, the more the duration is cut down of course.
I’ll be looking for a minimum depressing.

But the time (rpm) the lifter returns to full lifting abilities, the car will be well underway. It’ll feel like a second awaking.
 
Oh, still waiting on the OP for the cars weight, trans, gear ratio and tire size. Intended usage as well, or did I forget it already???? LMAO

FWIW, I think we have a good set of heads (minds) going on here.
 
Very good input thanks. The car does have 4 speed, 3.54 Dana, not sure about the diameter but it has the typical 15" ralleyes 245/60/R15 tires. I believe 26.6? inches diameter. Most likely 4.000 lbs. The Hughes Mopar cam design is known for high ramp speeds. I was thinking to maximize the high ramp design go with the roller lifters. Unless of course the lifters should be able to handle the ramp speeds just fine and stick with the economical flat hydraulic lifters.
 
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Very good input thanks. The car does have 4 speed, 3.54 Dana, not sure about the diameter but it has the typical 15" ralleyes 245/60/R15 tires. I believe 26.6? inches diameter. Most likely 4.000 lbs. The Hughes Mopar cam design is known for high ramp speeds. I was thinking to maximize the high ramp design go with the roller lifters. Unless of course the lifters should be able to handle the ramp speeds just fine and stick with the economical flat hydraulic lifters.

You'd need a dedicated roller cam for that. Keep it simple!
 
You'd need a dedicated roller cam for that. Keep it simple!

Simple is best. At first I thought more to go wrong with the roller lifters but it seems if you get a good set you can expect better results and durability. Some bad stories of needle bearings getting into everything so I was hesitant. Gonna have to reach deeper into the pocket but you only go around one time.....

I was impressed with Hughes and Howard cams. Now it's just a matter of choice.....

Thank you
 
Yea, 245/60/15’s are right in that 26.6 area. A small marginal difference exists between manufactures, but it is all in the same ball park. Ether cam company has some nice quick ramps and good lift to compliment good breathing heads. A cam in the (+ or - ) area of 230@050 will work really well here! (And I’d be careful on the plus side.) Also, this is just a IMO, but I myself would be looking at a solid lifter cam. If there is any worries to a solid lifter and oiling set up, you can run a EDM lifter, maybe even nitrated the cam. Your call.
(IMO, this thing is gonna rock!)
 
I currently have a slightly bigger Hughes cam then what you selected, the HE3844BL, with 1.6 ratio roller rockers.
This is an older grind with below specs:

upload_2020-5-6_1-1-31.png

upload_2020-5-6_1-1-47.png


Currently i am only getting 7" vacuum at best, i have tried/changed/tested everything why and to improve this but to no avail.
I am also considering to use the Rhoads variable hydraulic lifters.
I would pick them over the Hughes ones as these are "adjustable" and can be set as required.
Not sure if you are going with the Rhoads lifters, but i will be following this thread as i am interested to see the results if you do go with them.
 
do you have vac resavouier tank?
x2 On working with rhodes
lifters same seat height?
 
Did I read that right, you want to run roller lifters on a hydraulic FT cam? Don't! Or disaster may follow. HFT cams are ground to spin the lifters whereas a roller cam has flat lobes, not to mention different core materials. As was said you need a 'roller' cam if that's the route you wish to take. (In my foggy memory there was something in a HR mag tech article about this years back, where they said the roller "may work fine" on a FT lobe but cited a bunch of theory as to why it would actually give less performance...) Yeah there's the needle bearing stories, but the only failures I've personally witnessed with roller cams and the 'more affordable' roller lifters in an old-timey Mopar block were from the tie bar failing, and the lifter turning just a bit in it's bore...game over!
 
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HOWARDS
edm solid ft lifters
or if hyd
rhodes lube saver lifters or variable duration
lube savers from crower pm over on fabo dart19666 @ crower
you need some help pal
 
Hughes sent me their variable haydraulic lifters along with the cam.
I am now in the process of determing pushrod length with Mancini/Harland Sharp 1.5 roller rockers.

Is the process the same like with "standard" hydraulic lifters?
The lifter body height and all is the same like OEM lifters, the only thing is that the plunger has some free travel to the top whereas the old lifter pushes against the retainer.
Normally I would put some shims inside the old one to make it a solid and check pushrod length.
If I'd shim the Hughes variable lifter the pushrod would be around 2-3mm longer compared to a standard lifter because the plunger rests deeper inside.
 
one thing that concened me in one of your firsr posrs was in the lifter description mentioning that the lifter face was beveled which could be trouble with a fast rate mopar cam
do the hughes lifters have a bevel?
 
Shim the lifter?

The plunger should never touch the retainer clip. If the plunger hits the retaining coil, 1, the pushrod is to short and 2, the retaining clip could break.

As a min., my pushrod depresses the plunger at a minimum of .020.
 
Is the process the same like with "standard" hydraulic lifters?
The lifter body height and all is the same like OEM lifters, the only thing is that the plunger has some free travel to the top whereas the old lifter pushes against the retainer.
Normally I would put some shims inside the old one to make it a solid and check pushrod length.
If I'd shim the Hughes variable lifter the pushrod would be around 2-3mm longer compared to a standard lifter because the plunger rests deeper inside.

What you are saying is that the internal spring is not pushing the cup against the retainer at rest, which causes 2-3mm longer push rod is required to get it to "seat" against the internal spring.

To me, this is there to avoid using .000" lash because they will be very noisy and draw your attention there is something wrong.
I think you need to measure the push rod length when the cup actual is seated against the spring, then add the wanted pre-load to that measured length to get the final length. (Go Smith Brothers for your push rods, can highly recommend their support and products)
As per Hy-Lift Johnson lifters their catalogue all their products require .020"-.040" of pre-load.
But that same catalogue does not mention the variable lifters clearly as separate or so, i think you better ask Hughes and see what their recommendation is on pre load.

Edit: They are actually mentioned in the catalogue as "R" type, i have added the description in the pictures.

Schermafbeelding 2020-08-03 om 05.32.37.png Schermafbeelding 2020-08-03 om 05.42.33.png Schermafbeelding 2020-08-03 om 05.42.54.png
 
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What you are saying is that the internal spring is not pushing the cup against the retainer at rest, which causes 2-3mm longer push rod is required to get it to "seat" against the internal spring.
Exactly.

Therefor I would shim the variable lifter all the way up until it rests against the retainer (for checking purpose only). Like you would determine it the classic way with a stock hydraulic lifter and add the specific preload to the measured length.
Am I correct with that?

After having the right pushrods the process will be the same like with setting up solid lifters with a feeler gauge, right?
 
Therefor I would shim the variable lifter all the way up until it rests against the retainer (for checking purpose only). Like you would determine it the classic way with a stock hydraulic lifter and add the specific preload to the measured length.
Am I correct with that?

That "slack" that is there now, likely will be taken up by oil pressure under running conditions.
But if that is the purpose or set-up as designed i don't know.
Best bet is to ask advice from Hughes, they will know what reference point you need to use, either all the way up or from where it rests against the spring pressure.
My guess is that where it sits against the spring is the right place, but i have no work experience with these lifters.

After having the right pushrods the process will be the same like with setting up solid lifters with a feeler gauge, right?

When you have received the correct length pushrods you need to set it up in such a manner that there is "0" clearance/play on your push rod but there must be NO compression on the lifter internal spring, so this is a little delicate and you have to have patience to set it. It's not hard, when you lightly wiggle the push rod you will feel once the clearance becomes "0".
Then by using the adjustment screw on the rocker you apply the pre-load.
You need to verify the thread on the adjustment screw.
I am not sure on this anymore, so you need to take the following as an example.
I believe the threads normally are 3/8"-24, the -24 means Threads Per Inch (TPI). (this is UNF thread)
So, if you devide 1" by 24, you get 0.0416", this means that screwing in the adjustment screw 1 full turn after taking all clearance out, you applied 0.0416" of pre-load, 1/2 turn would be 0.0208", etc.
That is the easiest way to determine and set pre-load.
 
I have these lifters from Hughes and did an install this season. They are noisy compare to a regular run of the mill lifter. The internal plungers were up against the clip, not sure why yours are not. The internal spring has plenty of strength to make sure that happens.

Hughes cam card shows upwards of .090” preload which sounds like a lot. After a call to Hughes they told me I can run zero but they will be very noisy or go up to the .090” area. They said .050” is the best compromise they found. 1 turn with 20 thread pitch.

As far as the better vacuum and idle, who knows. I have nothing to compare it to. Plus Hughes recommended these for the setup so that’s what I used.
 
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