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going ladder bar suspension

mcv

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Hi, I have decided to upgrade to ladder bar rear suspension. The guy that was going install it and set it up for me passed away. I have all the parts new in boxes...... So my question for y"all what price should I expect to pay at an actual chassis shop? Anyone have any experience with chassis shops in southern ohio? The car is a 1967 Plymouth Belvedere 2dr sedan, rear end has been narrowed 2 inches per side. I have also been trying to decide on starter spring rates for coil overs. I was thinking 150 lb. to start. Any info would be appreciated.
 
Actually very little to it. Somebody that can weld correctly and measure. Brackets square to housing. Front cross member square to the centerline of the chassis and level. Shock cross member level. 125# springs are what you need.
Doug
 
thanks, I will look at 125's.
 
I have a pair of Hyper coils used for mock up only if you are interested.
Doug
 
If you goal is to drag race the car I would sell off the parts and plan on going to a 4-link set up. Ladder bar suspensions are sub par at best (yes a lot of people used them in the past). However very few use this setup today and it's mainly the cost factor of why guys still use them. Since you haven't done it yet there is still time to get the car setup with a much better suspension. The comparison between the two is light years different.

Tom
 
I would think Ladder Bars would be just fine for a 10.00 and slower car. I don't think you need 4 link unless you are faster than 10 flat...plus 4 link is a science to get set up right. Lots of guys on this site with just ladder bars going quite fast. Just get double adjustable shocks for the front and rear to make the suspension work correctly. Also with ladder bars (and/or 4 link) your reaction times on the Pro Tree are going to be lot better than leaf spring (Cal Trac, or so).
 
The quickest I've had experience with ladder bars is 9.30 in a 3500+ lb Challenger. It was a buddies car and was helping. Started out with CT's and never could get the car to hook right but it responded well right off the bar with the ladders. And yes, 150 lbs springs are too heavy. Rather start out with something that's on the light side vs heavy. And yes, a 4 link is superior to a ladder setup but like said, you're going to spend a good bit of time sorting it out. And what I think is a decent read is https://www.cachassisworks.com/Stories/TechCAC-003_WEB.pdf
 
How far down in southern Ohio are you.. There is a guy who did my mini tub and cal trac setup that his shop is close to National Trails
 
I am pretty set on ladder bars..The car will probably never go quicker than 10's. I live between Cincy -Dayton.
 
I am pretty set on ladder bars..The car will probably never go quicker than 10's. I live between Cincy -Dayton.
I've had great success with a a low 9 second car r
If you goal is to drag race the car I would sell off the parts and plan on going to a 4-link set up. Ladder bar suspensions are sub par at best (yes a lot of people used them in the past). However very few use this setup today and it's mainly the cost factor of why guys still use them. Since you haven't done it yet there is still time to get the car setup with a much better suspension. The comparison between the two is light years different.

Tom
Have you run a low 9 second car on ladder bars on 10.5's? I do, against trans brake 4 link cars. Works out pretty well.
Doug
 
well....got the first quote today.....Me supplying all parts..... 3500$ labor cost.. may stick with leaf springs.
 
well....got the first quote today.....Me supplying all parts..... 3500$ labor cost.. may stick with leaf springs.
Do you have any fab skills and a welding machine? It's not that difficult.....
 
well....got the first quote today.....Me supplying all parts..... 3500$ labor cost.. may stick with leaf springs.
I had a local one man shop (at his house in Fresno, CA) tell me he would do the ladder bar install labor for $500. He is a racer and a Mopar guy who helps other buddies out. You gotta find a guy like that....
 
The quickest I've had experience with ladder bars is 9.30 in a 3500+ lb Challenger. It was a buddies car and was helping. Started out with CT's and never could get the car to hook right but it responded well right off the bar with the ladders. And yes, 150 lbs springs are too heavy. Rather start out with something that's on the light side vs heavy. And yes, a 4 link is superior to a ladder setup but like said, you're going to spend a good bit of time sorting it out. And what I think is a decent read is https://www.cachassisworks.com/Stories/TechCAC-003_WEB.pdf
that's a good link Cranky
:thumbsup:
Chris Alston knows his ****, breaks it down pretty well too

fab work & lack of room
or people wanting to keep their backseats or not wanting to cut the floors
also deter them from using a 4 link suspension sometimes too
it's a tad more (depend on you fab skills) fab work
& only slightly more $$$ for the parts, special brackets with crazy adj. holes in them
most combos still need the same style coil-overs too, pref. dbl adj.

4 link, are in all classes that rules allows it, it is the industry std.,
in drag racing & other racing styles too
there's in from 14 second cars (maybe slower) & low 5 second cars running them

it's sort of more of a personal preference deal IMO

Yes ladder bars are a bit simpler, they aren't certainly or necessarily better
it doesn't take as much room underneath the car too, as a true 4 link
like I said above it's more of a room (or lack of room & don't want to cut it up)
& fab or tuning deal/choices

I've been in the high 7's, in the 1/4 on ladder bars @ almost 170
They obviously will work...
Originally I was slowed down for a 8.50 index car for Pro-Gas,
all steel 2900# 49 Ford with a FI 488cid PG trans-brake or foot brake
Budnicks 49 Ford Business Coupe Pro-Gas #4.jpg

pretty much the same
Chris Alston dbl. adjustable ladders
way back in the 80's

I had the 4 link later in the same car,
4 link also from Chris Alston Chassis Works
(I knew his old shop foreman Jim well, he raced with US)
it worked better, freed up movement,
slightly better 60ft low best of 1.10-15-ish vs 1.20-ish,
on the same types of tracks prep surfaces
same engine trans combo,
faster basically by the better 60ft,
getting into 2nd gear a tad later "not spinning",
mph better out the back
x maybe 1.5 - maybe 0.05-0.15 hundredths better,
depending on the track prep or altitudes

it helped to get down tracks that were more marginal before
usually with just a little upper bar adjustment,
it'd get down tracks it didn't do as well on before...

I also planned on putting far more HP (1500-1800+) to that rear suspension
nobody that had that much power back then, was running ladder bars

it later had a
526-540cid Milodon Mastodon Hemi 8.71:1 Blown, Enderle Bug Catcher Inj-Alky
that'd run in the best of 7.20 @ 188, with the 4 link best (IIRC) 1.05 60ft
my buddy claimed it was doing on the rear tires past 60ft
on a lot of good tracks (I'm not so sure about that)
wheelie bars (great tuning aid) was keeping it straight
& not very high up, moving forward & out always, not up
the adjustability of the 4 link aided tuning for that

this went consistent 7.0's high 180's on 4 link too
Calif. Outlaw P/S early 1990-ish
Budnicks 89 Camaro Z28 540ci Milodon Outlaw Pro-Stock Sears Point early 90's.JPG


this went best 6.69 @ 217 best 1994-ish Calif. Outlaw P/S on a 4 link too
if I can do it, 20 years ago, many should be able to today
with better technology & better tire compounds
Budnicks 92 Trans Am 540ci N20 Outlaw Pro-Stock Sac. Raceway early 90's.JPG


IMO, it depends on what you're doing, what you want
are you going to step up later ?
4 links are infinitely adjustable for many different ways,
(to tame it down or to pull the front wheels, change center of gravity
a little or drastically too, there are basic 4 link settings to start out with too,
just like ladder bars, a good fab & chassis guy could get you dialed in
& teach you pretty quickly too, it's not crazy tough,
it's more of a personal choice & room thing or your fab/tuning skill
)
you really want the car to move forward & out of the beams
(think of Pro-Stock cars, how they leave, drive out forward/hard, not huge wheel stands,
I know we aren't talking about P/S power or ET's here either
)
not necessarily up & out, rip the front end up, pull the tire out of the beams
like many tune their suspensions/cars to do/leave
unless trying to cheat a red light & want to pull the tire Up out of the beams
like many "super stocker" type cars, appear to be doing,
or when you're running on an index or dial in, mostly bracket racing
not heads up racing, with no breakout

hell I went a best of 8.58 @ 156
in a street/strip 68 RR 3520# car, on a 300 shot of N2O
same car would do 9.77 @ 135 with a little N/A street/strip 479cid wedge
15 years ago
with Calvert CalTrac bars with just a few flats of preload
on some shitty near wore out 315/60/15 M/T Drag radials,
test & tune day July 2007 Sacramento in 100* summer heat, appr. 2000ft AD
I'll bet I didn't have $20k in the whole damn car
sometimes simpler is better
the guys at Calvert all always said you had to
have 5" of separation on the front suspension for them to work
that car liked more like 3"- 3-1/2" or it'd just wheelstand like a mo-fo
wasting ET going up, not forward & many times having to lift

some of them phone call tune ups, aren't for every combo
one size doesn't fit all either, neither does one specific suspension

good luck what ever style of rear suspension you choose
 
Last edited:
Do you have any fab skills and a welding machine? It's not that difficult.....

I can weld and fab ,but right now I am dealing with an illness and I just cant lay on my back and do it... Plus I figured I would actually get something done right for a change:lol:
 
I had a local one man shop (at his house in Fresno, CA) tell me he would do the ladder bar install labor for $500. He is a racer and a Mopar guy who helps other buddies out. You gotta find a guy like that....

That's close to what my buddy was going to charge... when I got the latest quote for 3500$ it took everything I had to not bust out laughing. I guess he is welding with 14k gold welding wire.
 
that's a good link Cranky
:thumbsup:
Chris Alston knows his ****, breaks it down pretty well too

fab work & lack of room
or people wanting to keep their backseats or not wanting to cut the floors
also deter them from using a 4 link suspension sometimes too
it's a tad more (depend on you fab skills) fab work
& only slightly more $$$ for the parts, special brackets with crazy adj. holes in them
most combos still need the same style coil-overs too, pref. dbl adj.

4 link, are in all classes that rules allows it, it is the industry std.,
in drag racing & other racing styles too
there's in from 14 second cars (maybe slower) & low 5 second cars running them

it's sort of more of a personal preference deal IMO

Yes ladder bars are a bit simpler, they aren't certainly or necessarily better
it doesn't take as much room underneath the car too, as a true 4 link
like I said above it's more of a room (or lack of room & don't want to cut it up)
& fab or tuning deal/choices

I've been in the high 7's, in the 1/4 on ladder bars @ almost 170
They obviously will work...
Originally I was slowed down for a 8.50 index car for Pro-Gas,
all steel 2900# 49 Ford with a FI 488cid PG trans-brake or foot brake
View attachment 958123
pretty much the same
Chris Alston dbl. adjustable ladders
way back in the 80's

I had the 4 link later in the same car,
4 link also from Chris Alston Chassis Works
(I knew his old shop foreman Jim well, he raced with US)
it worked better, freed up movement,
slightly better 60ft low best of 1.10-15-ish vs 1.20-ish,
on the same types of tracks prep surfaces
same engine trans combo,
faster basically by the better 60ft,
getting into 2nd gear a tad later "not spinning",
mph better out the back
x maybe 1.5 - maybe 0.05-0.15 hundredths better,
depending on the track prep or altitudes

it helped to get down tracks that were more marginal before
usually with just a little upper bar adjustment,
it'd get down tracks it didn't do as well on before...

I also planned on putting far more HP (1500-1800+) to that rear suspension
nobody that had that much power back then, was running ladder bars

it later had a
526-540cid Milodon Mastodon Hemi 8.71:1 Blown, Enderle Bug Catcher Inj-Alky
that'd run in the best of 7.20 @ 188, with the 4 link best (IIRC) 1.05 60ft
my buddy claimed it was doing on the rear tires past 60ft
on a lot of good tracks (I'm not so sure about that)
wheelie bars (great tuning aid) was keeping it straight
& not very high up, moving forward & out always, not up
the adjustability of the 4 link aided tuning for that

this went consistent 7.0's high 180's on 4 link too
Calif. Outlaw P/S early 1990-ish
View attachment 958145

this went best 6.69 @ 217 best 1994-ish Calif. Outlaw P/S on a 4 link too
if I can do it, 20 years ago, many should be able to today
with better technology & better tire compounds
View attachment 958146

IMO, it depends on what you're doing, what you want
are you going to step up later ?
4 links are infinitely adjustable for many different ways,
(to tame it down or to pull the front wheels, change center of gravity
a little or drastically too, there are basic 4 link settings to start out with too,
just like ladder bars, a good fab & chassis guy could get you dialed in
& teach you pretty quickly too, it's not crazy tough,
it's more of a personal choice & room thing or your fab/tuning skill
)
you really want the car to move forward & out of the beams
(think of Pro-Stock cars, how they leave, drive out forward/hard, not huge wheel stands,
I know we aren't talking about P/S power or ET's here either
)
not necessarily up & out, rip the front end up, pull the tire out of the beams
like many tune their suspensions/cars to do/leave
unless trying to cheat a red light & want to pull the tire Up out of the beams
like many "super stocker" type cars, appear to be doing,
or when you're running on an index or dial in, mostly bracket racing
not heads up racing, with no breakout

hell I went a best of 8.58 @ 156
in a street/strip 68 RR 3520# car, on a 300 shot of N2O
same car would do 9.77 @ 135 with a little N/A street/strip 479cid wedge
15 years ago
with Calvert CalTrac bars with just a few flats of preload
on some shitty near wore out 315/60/15 M/T Drag radials,
test & tune day Sacramento in 100* heat, appr. 2000ft AD
I'll bet I didn't have $20k in the whole damn car
sometimes simpler is better
the guys at Calvert all always said you had to
have 5" of separation on the front suspension for them to work
that car liked more like 3"- 3-1/2" or it'd just wheelstand like a mo-fo
wasting ET going up, not forward & many times having to lift

some of them phone call tune ups, aren't for every combo
one size doesn't fit all either, neither does one specific suspension

good luck what ever style of rear suspension you choose

When I was younger I bought a back half Ford Mustang rolling chassis with ladder bars, I don't know what shocks or what weight springs were on it. I dropped a big block 383 and 727 in it and raced. I loved how easy it was to set up. It just worked, so I have a little bit of experience with that set up. So that's my main reason for wanting ladder bars. If you give me too many adjustment options I would go insane messing with it, that's why I don't reload ammunition either......If some is good ,MORE has to be better!!!!!
 
As said, the ladder bar won't get you the last few hundreths out of the car, but it is fairly simple to get real close, and is quite consistent track to track, maybe not ideal on slippery tracks. Double external adjustable shocks really help.
 
With today's shock technology just about any suspension will work. Ladder bars are simple, light, and cheap. Cal-Tracks, leaf springs, and triangulated 4 link are the most streetable. 4 link for that last .0x in ET. But unless you are an expert tuner with very good shocks, none of them will ever be to the full potential. All can work well. There are cars near 1.10 60 ft with leaf springs. My ladder bar car has been 1.240 60 ft with 20 year old shocks
Doug
 
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