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3 broken starters, I now fit the description of insanity

OKDart

OKDart

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Keep trying the same thing and expecting different results.

I built a 440 based 505 Stroker, It started fine, but during break in, a rocker adjuster loosened and the lifter popped out of its bore and spilt its guts. Replaced the lifter and completed break in. Then the starter broke. I figured that I forgot to tighten the mount bolts, so I replaced it.

Also, the torque converter (lock-up) was difficult to install and had no fore/aft movement with trans bolted to engine. I figured I’d run it a few miles and re-check it.

Started fine for a few times, but on a test drive, at low RPM it sounds like a tractor, and getting on it, it’s sluggish. And after a few more starts, the starter broke again.

When I checked the torque converter, it still didn’t have fore/aft movement. So I pulled it out and sent it back to the builder. They said the hub was welded on wrong, fixed it and sent it back. It went on smooth and easily this time. I figured the incorrectly positioned hub caused the starter to break, and re-installed everything.

Engine starts fine the first time, no noise or grinding, and then breaks on the second attempt. So now I think maybe something wrong with ring gear. So I buy another torque converter from another company, and when I remove the original one, everything seems fine with it.

So here I am today, trying to decide to install another mini starter, or a more robust stock starter. And I’m thinking maybe the cam timing isn’t right causing too much stress on the starter. BTW, I never degreed the cam. Compression check was @ 190 PSI in all cylinders

thoughts?
 
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Here’s the starters, left to right, first one broken to last. Then a stock for comparison.

Note that on the last one, the upper bolt hole never broke, only the snout.

32E8FB97-622F-4337-AB71-C18B3F19611D.jpeg
 
I thought only I had stuff like that go bad. Better luck going forward. This is strange I would like to know cause if you figure it out. I have yet to fire my new 440.
 
You have bigger problems than just the starter. From what you explained, I think the problem is in the torque converter. Sounds like it's not installed correctly. That could be binding up the flywheel and causing your starter problems. Time to pull that trans.
 
are you installing the convertor correctly?
you have to spin the vertor while pushing firmly in the center,and you will feel it go In and engage the pump drive.
it takes 2 times to seat,keep pushing and spinning till its all the way in.
when you have it in correctly,youll hear the click of the pump as you spin it either way.
thats all i can think of,esp as this is your 3rd convertor.

theres only a few things it could be
bad install
trans case out of round/use offset dowels/change trans
flexplate/aftermarket=too thick
bad trans

warning...if it was your install of the vertor that messed things up and you Drove the car too.
its entirely possible the trans may need work now.
 
When I was young and dumb, I broke the ears off of the front pump of a 727 while installing a transmission. That’s all it took for me to learn my lesson. Binding on the pump ears is definitely not the problem.

I never thought of the possibility that the trans bell housing could be the issue. The trans was bought from a reputable builder and has a VIN stamped on the pad. I’ll take some measurements and see.

Right now the transmission is out with the new torque converter installed ready to go in. But I have headers and the starter needs to be installed before I put the transmission back in. I’m leaning towards a stock starter to rule that possibility out.

Right now I’m leaning towards cam timing being the issue because when I had the ignition disabled and the plugs out during the compression check. It cranked fast and smooth.

Do you think a timing issue could break a mini starter?
 
what you are describing is called kickback
i would Think?? that you would hear that tho when the motor was cranking over ?
esp if its breaking starter snouts,there would be a corresponding backfire etc.
the no play - back n forth at all w vertor tho is what really stands out to me in your post.
is the flexplate a factory one or an aftermarket/much thicker one ?
 
I never really heard any kickback, just lower spinning speed of the starter and then grinding noise after it broke. I have a B&M SFI flexplate, same part # I’ve used on other engines without issue.

The fore/aft clearance of the torque converter issue was resolved after the second broken starter.

Note that I used an older deep cycle battery for all of the starting. But for my next engine start, I have a real 800 CCA car battery
87FD6C2A-F38A-43C0-98D5-94BF9E81EA25.jpeg B3CEBA04-7EEC-4408-8185-5C88D041F6A8.jpeg
 
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So its had 2 different torque converters, correct? That leads me to look elsewhere. Is the starter really setting flat at the trans? Occasionally part of the block interferes with the starter. It'll be close enough to bolt up but hits the block and doesn't set flat. Check it.
Doug
 
Had the exact same issue with my 440. Three noses broke on mini starters. Once it got warm it kicked back during cranking. Drove me nuts. Turned out it was the vacuum advance on the distrib was advancing during crank. Went to a full mechanical distrib and life is good, some thing to look into at least.
 
Was going to mention flex plate might be be backwards on the crank, but pic looks like it's correct. Sand the paint off the converter hub so slides in properly. Be sure it is engaged all the way in the trans pump lugs. The dowels in the block that locate the trans could need some adjustment, seems unlikely they would be that far off. Case could be deformed, again unlikely. Wrong size of the ring gear on the converter seems most likely. Might think about another converter manufacturer.
 
I'd check what dvw said first. Put a mini starter in, the nose of the didn't go in trans right. Had to rock starter to get alignment in trans. BeaterRus' idea trans case not aligned right, maybe. When you cranked it over did the sound of the meshed gears change?
 
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Years ago we had one mini starter that required grinding on the block so it had clearance to mount flat. Also back the timing off if you think its kicking back, check tdc maybe your timing marks are off. I am not a big fan of mini starters, if a old school one fits try it...at least it won't be as painful if its breaks. We are still running a oem starter on our 510 rb...25 + years now...same starter.

Pull your plugs out and crank on it...it should crank really fast then you can likely narrow it to the engine or a flywheel engagement issue.
 
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To answer some questions, all 3 starters were broke using the same torque converter. I have a different torque converter in the transmission now waiting to mount to the engine. Due to headers, I have to put the starter in place before mating engine/trans.

I have compared both torque converters, and their measurements are identical. I’ve spun them both while mounted in the transmission and they appear the same. Their teeth count and diameter are the same.

I'm 99% sure I checked the block clearance to the starters when I installed them, but there was beer involved.

The starters all sounded fine while cranking until the moment they broke.

Since now I know it’s possible for timing to break mini starters thanks to HALIFAXHOPS experience, I’m going to install an original style starter and get the timing dialed in. I’ll mock up the broken starters and rule out the interference possibility.

Thanks everyone
 
You will know if it is timing pretty easily. Cold it starts perfect but warm/hot it wants to kick back, or should I add "strains". Now you know what to look for it is easy to check, was hell to figure out.
 
I've been using a stock mini starter for 8 years in my drag car. Crank trigger with 34 degrees fixed timing at 15-1 compression. It's cranked with ignition turned on. Same starter never an issue.
Doug
 
*******UPDATE********

So, the problem was either a bad coil or ECU. Both were replaced and the problem went away. The coil was leaking, but not sure if a bad coil could cause this issue. Note that I'm using a used factory starter now.

I disconnected the electronic ignition (orange box with Mancini Firecore distributor) and put in a points distributor and the starting seemed fine, but lack of power still an issue. So I installed a MSD control box and a Blaster 2 coil with the same distributor I've been using the whole time, and all is well now. When I removed the old coil, I noticed my hand was wet, then noticed a little puddle below where the coil was mounted (sideways on intake). I can't remember where that coil came from, but I do know it was used. However, I can't see how a bad coil could cause kickback and break starters.
 
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I dont get the coil eiher. If it is mounted sideways you want a epoxy filled coil, the oil tend to leak and also the oil might not be covering the top of the windings if that makes sense.
 
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