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Hook up vacuum advance, timing retards appreciably

peabodyracin

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I've been noodling over this issue for a day now. This spring I pulled a very tired 440 out of my car and replaced it with a fresher 383. The 440 had a Mopar Performance electronic ignition setup on it, and it worked well.

Because of that, I purchased a new electronic distributor from a well known eBay seller, to use with the 383. The engine started right up and I fiddled a bit with it to get it to the point where it would sit and idle, albeit not terribly well. Played with the distributor position some, but it didn't seem to respond like I expected. I then started getting loud 'bangs' out of the exhaust pipes, seemingly at random. My first thought was the timing must be badly retarded, as the exhaust certainly didn't smell like it was running overly rich.

I then figured maybe my ear wasn't as good at setting timing as it used to be, so went and got my timing light (which I've probably not used for 5+ years). Disconnected the vacuum advance, plugged the line, put the light on and looked at the timing marks with engine idling.

Played with it a little and left it at 8-10 degrees before TDC. The engine sounded good, and idled very well. Hooked up the vacuum advance and the engine immediately started running rougher, with the bangs in the tail pipe again. Put the light on the marks again and the timing was now 12 degrees or so after TDC.

I couldn't believe what I was seeing so I did everything over again, and got the same result every time I hook up the vacuum advance.

I've not torn into the distributor yet and have not come up with a theory on why it's acting this way. I assumed the vacuum diaphragm just moves the plate in the distributor like every other one I've worked on. I'm at a loss as to why it would be moving it in the wrong direction.

Anyone seen this before?
 
Are you sure the distributor for a 383 engine? A distributor for an "A" engine, the distributor rotates in the opposite direction and if applying the vacuum signal would cause a retarded reluctor plate movement. The reluctor would generate the same pulse in either direction of rotation. Just a thought..
BOB RENTON
 
I don't think the shaft length is the same on an an LA engine.
What does the timing light show when you increase RPM with the vacuum advance disconnected and just mechanical advance?
This is really odd?
 
Are you sure the distributor for a 383 engine? A distributor for an "A" engine, the distributor rotates in the opposite direction and if applying the vacuum signal would cause a retarded reluctor plate movement. The reluctor would generate the same pulse in either direction of rotation. Just a thought..
BOB RENTON
That doesn't make a lick of sense to me......but is it possible to have the wrong advance plate in it?
 
Assuming the distributor is in properly (I doubt it would run at all if it was 180 out) It sounds like the pickup wires may be reversed. Try switching the wires and see if it changes, if not, you can always switch them back. Another possibility is the reluctor wheel is installed improperly causing a phasing problem; most of them can be pinned to the shaft in one of two positions. The easy test for that is to see if the reluctor and pickup points are lined up when the rotor is almost lined up with a plug tower.
 
Small block and big block distributor. Which one do you have?

273 distributor.jpg 383 distributor.jpg
 
That might be a little confusing as those are points not electric and over the years the vac adv pods look different.
 
That doesn't make a lick of sense to me......but is it possible to have the wrong advance plate in it?

The reluctor generates a pulse, each time a tooth passes the pole piece, regardless of rotation direction. IF the "A" engine distributor were installed, a vacuum signal would cause the reluctor pick up plate to rotate in the SAME direction as the shaft causing the RETARDED timing result. Advance action is OPPOSITE that of rotation.
I believe that the polarity of the reluctor pick up coil wires is important to the point of the diminished amplitude of the pulse which might result in a no spark condition. Beside the correct polarity is determined by the connecting plug and cannot be installed wrong, unless forced or spliced incorrectly. Just my opinion of course.
BOB RENTON
 
Just to add, I've witnessed some of these new 'replacement' units having the pickup wires connected backwards inside the distributor--from the factory (in China no doubt.) At the moment I can't remember which wire is supposed to go to which pin on the ECU, but that would be the check to make before cutting and splicing them.

Some of the MP distributors (and maybe other brands?) used the same reluctor wheel for either big or small blocks; they just pinned it on one way or the other depending on application. These reluctors have tiny arrows etched into the top edge and two roll pin detents. If it got pinned on for the wrong direction of rotation, that may also cause the issue. Seen that too (also on hecho en China distributor).
 
Small block and big block distributor. Which one do you have?

View attachment 1000652 View attachment 1000653

I have the one on the right. If it was a small block, I believe the rotation is clockwise, while I know big block is counter clockwise. I should have never gotten the engine to fire with the plug wires in position for the counter clockwise rotation on a clockwise distributor.
 
I have the one on the right. If it was a small block, I believe the rotation is clockwise, while I know big block is counter clockwise. I should have never gotten the engine to fire with the plug wires in position for the counter clockwise rotation on a clockwise distributor.
Yep!
 
I don't think the shaft length is the same on an an LA engine.
What does the timing light show when you increase RPM with the vacuum advance disconnected and just mechanical advance?
This is really odd?

When I increase RPM's with the vacuum advance disconnected, the mechanical advance works as I'd expect.
 
Assuming the distributor is in properly (I doubt it would run at all if it was 180 out) It sounds like the pickup wires may be reversed. Try switching the wires and see if it changes, if not, you can always switch them back. Another possibility is the reluctor wheel is installed improperly causing a phasing problem; most of them can be pinned to the shaft in one of two positions. The easy test for that is to see if the reluctor and pickup points are lined up when the rotor is almost lined up with a plug tower.

Lord, how many hours I've burned up trying to start an engine with the distributor in 180 degrees out! You gets lots of interesting bangs coming out both ends of the engine.

Before posting I'd done some searching and had seen a comment that aftermarket electronic distributors will run with the two wires in either position, but if they're reversed, it affects timing. I must admit I don't know how that could be, but your advice seems sound. I will check alignment and try reversing the wires.

Thanks to all for your comments!
 
Not even sure this is possible, but, could there be mismatched parts in distributor?
B engine shaft installed in an La distributor body????
 
Take the cap off and push the arm that attaches to the vacuum canister in towards the canister.
The plate should rotate clockwise.
Try the same thing using a vacuum source, even another car if need be.
Can you tell what maximum advance when purely centrifigal?
I'm thinking it is a reluctor/rotor phasing thing but the math doesn't quite add up.
I've never tried it but you can check for that by drilling a hole near the #1 tower in the cap and I think you put the timing light through it it and see the rotor reference to the tower at various advance points.
 
Can you post a pic of your distributor with it installed on your 383?
 
My guess/experience is the rotor isn't phased properly to the reluctor.... When the vacuum advance pulls in timing the rotor starts throwing sparks at the next terminal on the cap.....

The easy way to check if your distributor cap is "out of phase" is to drill a hole in the top of it that would allow you to see the spark between the rotor and cap terminal. Some caps are so far off that the spark actually jumps to an adjacent terminal.

Ebooger sells the fix...

https://www.ebay.com/itm/MOPAR-Elec...715928?hash=item4b7f811fd8:g:xqUAAOSwBahVGW~j
 
Only thing that comes to mind is your not using ported vacuum. From what you posted it is advancing when you hook up the vacuum advance up. Hope it helps.

LA and BB shafts wont interchange and neither will the vacuum advances. Take a picture from the top down with the cap and rotor off for me.
 
Not even sure this is possible, but, could there be mismatched parts in distributor?
B engine shaft installed in an La distributor body????

and won't advance the mechanical setup either... I guess. But maybe just getting lowered the RPMs after give throttle, due the reverse innertia, somehow.
 
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I can tell everyone that I had a 318 A body that came from the factory with the reluctor harness constructed backwards.
It had run like since 1973 with no problems and was not found till I rewired the engine compartment a couple of years ago.
That's all I know.
I'm going to the kitchen and getting Popcorn to find out if that is the problem.
 
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