how to get better cornering on our b bodies

ckessel said:

Buy the b-body performance upgrades book that ANDYF made. Look on arengineering.com. Another is the old and hard to find, because its out of production, SA Design book that is my avatar. It may be old, but the info still rocks.

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I completely agree with the above statement. Andy Finkbeiner has done a very good job of giving an introduction to updating B-bodies. I would also recommend Fred Puhn's "How to Make Your Car Handle". Buying these books will give you a good, cheap head start on your project.

I also would emphasize that your tires will probably make the biggest difference in how well your car goes around corners. I agree with Kern Dog in post #9 on that. I wound up going with 18" wheels and tires as well in order to get sizes I wanted (245 on the front and 285 on the rear) in a sticky tire (Michelin Pilot Sport 4 S).

Overall, my suspension upgrades have included:

1. Firm Feel 175 lb/inch (1" diameter) torsion bars. These are close to the 10% of front end weight as recommended in Andy Finkbeiner's article "Torsion Bar Tango" that can be found at: http://arengineering.com/tech/torsion-bar-tango/. In general, I wouldn't recommend going too high on torsion bar wheel rate, as better handling is had with softer springs. Harder springs won't make your car handle better, but you may prefer the firmer ride.

2. Firm Feel front and rear anti-roll bars (sway bars).

3. Bilstein dampers (shock absorbers), tuned for Mopar B-bodies by Race Car Dynamics.

4. Borgeson 14:1 steering box, purchased through Bergman Auto Craft. This box has a faster ratio and higher effort than the stock unit.

5. Firm Feel upper control arms. These have a slightly changed geometry from the stock units to allow more negative camber and positive camber to be adjusted in during alignment. Modern tires can take advantage of these adjustments, where the original bias ply tires could not.

6. All new ball joints, tie rod ends, and bushings to get rid of 50 years of wear.

Overall, the car is feels much better and flatter during turns, but since I haven't got the wheels and tires mounted yet, it doesn't yet pull any more G-force. Have fun updating your car. Cheers!

Oops. In Item 5 in my previous post, it should have said "negative camber and positive caster". And this despite proof reading. Is there a way to edit my previous posts to fix things like this? Sorry for any confusion. Cheers!

And it would be a good idea to do some structure upgrades. Frame connectors, torque boxes, fender apron braces, lower tie bar etc.

One other thing I would suggest is to get in the habit of measuring your cornering performance rather than going by "the seat of your pants". You can get apps for your smart phone that will tell you how much lateral acceleration you are getting through your favorite on ramp (or wherever you measure it). In general, humans are lousy instruments for measuring vehicle performance (and generally lousy at observing, certainly so in my case), so it is best to get in the habit of trying to take more objective measurements to see what effect changes have. I use an app called Torque that uses the phone's GPS and accelerometers and can read engine data from an OBD port if your engine has one (mine doesn't, but the acceleration data is useful). In general, trying to feel a difference in performance is not reliable. Cheers!

davek said:

what to improve how the car gos into corners,upgrades? thanks

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I wrote a book on the subject: https://www.amazon.com/Mopar-B-Body-Performance-Upgrades-1962-1979/dp/1613252501

andyf said:

I wrote a book on the subject: https://www.amazon.com/Mopar-B-Body-Performance-Upgrades-1962-1979/dp/1613252501

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I have Andy Finkbeiner's book and it is very good. I also recommend Fred Puhn's "How to Make Your Car Handle". Cheers!

andyf said:

I wrote a book on the subject: https://www.amazon.com/Mopar-B-Body-Performance-Upgrades-1962-1979/dp/1613252501

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A great book for our hobby !

I posted a thread 'Firm Feel II box installation' week or two ago concerning the left tie rod hitting the torsion bar and center rod dragging across my TTI header left side (redone poly - 63 Ply new mounts). Have received some replies that I'm following up on. Along the trail of retracing all that has been done, I've tried to contact FF tech to obtain their install instructions. So far no reply. A shop installed the setup so my gist is to follow what's supposed to be what. Not saying there's some defect with parts or install, or if even related, just want to run this backwards. I put in front disks and went to 15" radials before the install. The necessary alignment, as I can recollect, is pert far off OEM spec's to garner nice wander-less steer/return and wondering if more should be done to the linkage or suspension to handle this besides just new bushings put in with the box. Could be all wet, but wondering if the alignment (lowered front some 1.5 or so inches before the alignment was done) may have cantered the system to create the binding. I'm taking it to an alignment shop so they can let me know the present alignment specs to return it to those specs before I start disassembly as car was driving tight, straight. Who knows, could be control arms and such should have been replaced with new. Torsion bar has been gouged enough (photo) needing a new pair.

Kern Dog said:

I agree....The picture he has shows a '70 Coronet so I'll just figure that is the one.

View attachment 1000856
THis car has been an ongoing development process. It handles quite well. I didn't do everything at once though. I've owned the car 20 years. I've tried different shocks, sway bars, torsion bars and tires.
First up, where and how you spend your money depends on what your overall goal is for the car.
A man that just wants to be able to drive it safely and have it respond well can get great results with a factory stock front end rebuild, a good set of shock absorbers and some good tires.
If you are looking for much more, it is going to get much more involved.
As stated, weight is an enemy. The lighter the car, the less mass that the suspension, brakes and steering have to work with.
The suspension works best when it has a rigid platform to work with. The addition of frame connectors is a great way to add stiffness. The added weight is worth it here. I have them along with home made torque boxes.
The stock torsion bars are between .88 to .94" It has been said that the Mopar spring rates were too soft up front and too stiff out back. I agree. I run 1.15 torsion bars on that red car above. The leaf springs are Mopar Performance 440/Hemi spec. Shocks are Bilstein RCD from Firm Feel. For sway bars, I have a 1.25 up front and a .75 (3/4") in the back.
Tires are a subject that always has critics. The really good handling tires are in a larger rim diameter than these cars ever had. The sticky tire selection in 15" rim size is very limited. 16" isn't good either. Mine are 18", a size that I picked because it allowed some sidewall for a reasonable ride.
If you are just looking for improved stock, as I stated, a good quality standard front end rebuild is a great start along with good shocks and tires. The torsion bars and sway bars can be added later.

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You know your stuff.

Sascha said:

Hi,
I did QA1 stage 3 handling kit, Borgeson steering box, Hotchkis 1,03 torsion bars, sway bar, weld in subframe connectors, SS springs.
It‘s a night and day difference but still a big car;)

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wow

Hotchkiss TVS. End thread...

For those that do want a "recipe", Hotchkis is a way to go but they are expensive. You can do fine without their upper control arms. Offset bushings in stock arms got me 4.5 degrees of Caster. Helwig makes a front sway bar that is similar and is half the price.