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Blue smoke. Now wtf?

BSB67 said:
Good point. Is the rocker stuck to the shaft, or are they galled?
Click to expand...
The rocker wasn't stuck to the shaft, but it seriously gouged the shaft. They very obviously became almost fused together for a short period of time which I assume is why the rocker stopped pivoting, allowing the pushrod to just blast a hole though the rocker. The shaft, rocker, and pushrod are all being replaced.
 
I should have the new rocker, rocker shaft, and pushrod by Friday. The engine builder asked me if I wanted to go with roller rockers, but for right now I'm not. These stamped rockers worked in all sorts of performance applications, and I don't think they are required for my car. is it an upgrade I might do one day? Maybe, but the car was going into winter storage this weekend, and I'm not about to drop $$$ on an upgrade a few days before storage. I'll fix this problem, which will be pretty inexpensive compared to what it could have been, and she goes away for 7 months. When it comes back, it will have a nice warm, heated garage to sit in. I will post again after replacing the parts and running the engine. I will also take a very close look at the shaft, and look for blockages this weekend. Thanks guys. You've been most helpful. Hey, I know how to do a leak down test now, lol.

IMG_20200907_200400.jpg
 
Mark1972 said:
I should have the new rocker, rocker shaft, and pushrod by Friday. The engine builder asked me if I wanted to go with roller rockers, but for right now I'm not. These stamped rockers worked in all sorts of performance applications, and I don't think they are required for my car. is it an upgrade I might do one day? Maybe, but the car was going into winter storage this weekend, and I'm not about to drop $$$ on an upgrade a few days before storage. I'll fix this problem, which will be pretty inexpensive compared to what it could have been, and she goes away for 7 months. When it comes back, it will have a nice warm, heated garage to sit in. I will post again after replacing the parts and running the engine. I will also take a very close look at the shaft, and look for blockages this weekend. Thanks guys. You've been most helpful. Hey, I know how to do a leak down test now, lol.

View attachment 1005568
Click to expand...
This might sound funny, but thank YOU for reporting back and keeping those of us following the thread informed.
Not only does it feed that need for closure for some of us, but anyone coming along in the future will be helped
as well when they read the result. :thumbsup:
 
Mark1972 said:
I should have the new rocker, rocker shaft, and pushrod by Friday. The engine builder asked me if I wanted to go with roller rockers, but for right now I'm not. These stamped rockers worked in all sorts of performance applications, and I don't think they are required for my car. is it an upgrade I might do one day? Maybe, but the car was going into winter storage this weekend, and I'm not about to drop $$$ on an upgrade a few days before storage. I'll fix this problem, which will be pretty inexpensive compared to what it could have been, and she goes away for 7 months. When it comes back, it will have a nice warm, heated garage to sit in. I will post again after replacing the parts and running the engine. I will also take a very close look at the shaft, and look for blockages this weekend. Thanks guys. You've been most helpful. Hey, I know how to do a leak down test now, lol.

View attachment 1005568
Click to expand...
Anyone who's done this stuff alot knows that you run into all kinds of crazy/weird crap.....you learn from all these little experiences. Good luck with it.
 
Mark1972 said:
Ok, so with over 1000 miles on the rebuilt 440, for the first time it was blowing blue smoke during warm up this morning. Not much, but enough I noticed. My wife and I went for a drive for lunch, and there was a trail of blue smoke behind us. We came home. I popped the hood and had a look around, but blue smoke is oil, so what am I going to look at. I did some research and decided to change the PCV valve, even though the one on the engine seems fine, and was basically new. Went for another drive, had some smoke coming from behind, and it eventually stopped. Got home in garage, revved it up and held it around 2500, and this time no smoke. Should I be looking further into this or was I right to guess PCV valve?
Click to expand...
A bad PCV valve will dump a lot of oil in to the plenum and runners. If the oil smoke has cleared up, I would let it sit for a day and drive it again. If it is still smoking then I would run a dry and maybe a wet compression test.
 
Mark1972 said:
Ok, so with over 1000 miles on the rebuilt 440, for the first time it was blowing blue smoke during warm up this morning. Not much, but enough I noticed. My wife and I went for a drive for lunch, and there was a trail of blue smoke behind us. We came home. I popped the hood and had a look around, but blue smoke is oil, so what am I going to look at. I did some research and decided to change the PCV valve, even though the one on the engine seems fine, and was basically new. Went for another drive, had some smoke coming from behind, and it eventually stopped. Got home in garage, revved it up and held it around 2500, and this time no smoke. Should I be looking further into this or was I right to guess PCV valve?
Click to expand...
valvle seals r shot . replsc them with a good high quatity sent . it will take a good air corpressor & the spack plug to air line adapter hose & a valve spring compressor & a small magnet to retrieve the keepers off the valve after u compress the spring . or remone theheads & do it on the bench u will not need the air then but air tools will make it earler. if u r not real mechanical inclined have it done in a shop if u drop a valve u eill be pulling the head
 
Mark1972 said:
Ok, so with over 1000 miles on the rebuilt 440, for the first time it was blowing blue smoke during warm up this morning. Not much, but enough I noticed. My wife and I went for a drive for lunch, and there was a trail of blue smoke behind us. We came home. I popped the hood and had a look around, but blue smoke is oil, so what am I going to look at. I did some research and decided to change the PCV valve, even though the one on the engine seems fine, and was basically new. Went for another drive, had some smoke coming from behind, and it eventually stopped. Got home in garage, revved it up and held it around 2500, and this time no smoke. Should I be looking further into this or was I right to guess PCV valve?
Click to expand...
Blue smoke on start up can be Valve guides or valve seals. Good test is to rev engine at idle and look for blue smoke on the deceleration.
 
Can I ask what brand / manufacturer of those stamped rockers ?
 
BSB67 said:
Agreed. If I was a betting man, I would guess the new rocker as the cause over the used shaft.[/QUOTE
Click to expand...
PRHeads said:
A fast rate hyd cam, higher valve spring loads, and aftermarket stock replacement rocker arms.
That’s a combo that doesn’t make me feel warm all over........ although I think in this particular case, the oil feed hole to that rocker was probably blocked.

If the plugs on the ends of the shafts don’t look new(from being replaced)....... there was/is likely some debris inside(and they should be cleaned out).

I put a pushrod thru a rocker on my heap about 35 years ago....... nothing was discolored though...... it just fatigued and failed.
Click to expand...
I hope the brand name wasn’t Elgin rocker arms - That would explain everything
 
Bee1971 said:
Can I ask what brand / manufacturer of those stamped rockers ?
Click to expand...
I don't know the brand used, but I will have an answer hopefully by the weekend. The shop is ordering them.
 
Sounds Good

Let us know before installation
 
The rocker manufacturer is Melling. The engine builder told me that over the last few years they have been having issues with stamped rockers not being heat treated properly. In speaking with other engine builders, the guy told me this isn't completely uncommon. He prefers to use the old rockers and rocker shafts if possible instead of replacing with new units. Either way, we will see what happens. My parts didn't come in this week so I'll be posting with another update once parts arrive and are installed. I'll be checking them for burrs, sharp edges, and poor craftsmanship before installing. Have a great weekend all.
 
I wonder if the “country of origin” will be on the rocker arm packaging.

Long before “fast rate” cams were all the rage, and lifters could actually be expected to stay pumped up for days(so the motor didn’t clatter on start up every morning), it wasn’t really that uncommon to put a pushrod through a rocker arm.
MP used to sell HD stamped rockers as a way to help combat that, although I don’t think they’ve been available for over 10 years.
 
MP Stamped Rockers measured around .115" in the socket area - Picture

Used 1968 440HP - 0.121-0.135"

Used 1977 440(T) - 0.135-0.141"

I run Made In The USA on all sixteen boxes - Sealed Power Stamped Rockers that I bought around four years ago thru Summit Racing along with Sealed Power shafts

Measured around .140/.145" if I remember correctly

Two sets of Elgin Rockers that I bought , I ended up returning after I crushed them in my hand like tinfoil LOL

They had sharp thin edges and where just terrible in areas

Melling I have no experience with Sorry
71A5FACE-40CC-483C-952E-27A8E86DC438.png
 
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I thought I read years ago that all aftermarket rockers are thicker than stock because the failure rate was so high originally. I guess I remember wrong.

As far as the shaft, there are 4 ways it can be installed, and only one is correct. The oiling holes need to face down and away from the pedestals.

Here’s a pic of an engine I’ve yet to tear down. The holes are pointed opposite the rockers! The guy I bought it from said it was only driven 6 miles. Not sure if it seized back then or not, but the motor is seized now.

Also the fan is backwards too, crazy! And it had to have taken extra effort to install it backwards because the blades are so close to the radiator making the bolts hard to reach. Any body ever see a 100% fiberglass flex fan? This is the first I've ever seen one. Only the rivets are metal.

1304E008-E4D9-4420-8423-2A7901A65C89.jpeg 143DA9FE-F466-4FF1-9889-EE734673D121.jpeg B6A80E53-ACA8-467A-9426-312C492B7802.jpeg
 
Last edited:
OKDart said:
I thought I read years ago that all aftermarket rockers are thicker than stock because the failure rate was so high originally. I guess I remember wrong.

As far as the shaft, there are 4 ways it can be installed, and only one is correct. The oiling holes need to face down and away from the pedestals.

Here’s a pic of an engine I’ve yet to tear down. The holes are pointed opposite the rockers! The guy I bought it from said it was only driven 6 miles. Not sure if it seized back then or not, but the motor is seized now.

Also the fan is backwards too, crazy! And it had to have taken extra effort to install it backwards because the blades are so close to the radiator making the bolts hard to reach. Any body ever see a 100% fiberglass flex fan? This is the first I've ever seen one. Only the rivets are metal.

View attachment 1007671 View attachment 1007672
Click to expand...
I know Flex-A-Lite used to make a Nylon flex fan, which always surprised me since they're supposedly a quality
company in the flex fan world...
 
OKDart said:
I thought I read years ago that all aftermarket rockers are thicker than stock because the failure rate was so high originally. I guess I remember wrong.

As far as the shaft, there are 4 ways it can be installed, and only one is correct. The oiling holes need to face down and away from the pedestals.

Here’s a pic of an engine I’ve yet to tear down. The holes are pointed opposite the rockers! The guy I bought it from said it was only driven 6 miles. Not sure if it seized back then or not, but the motor is seized now.

Also the fan is backwards too, crazy! And it had to have taken extra effort to install it backwards because the blades are so close to the radiator making the bolts hard to reach. Any body ever see a 100% fiberglass flex fan? This is the first I've ever seen one. Only the rivets are metal.

View attachment 1007671 View attachment 1007672 View attachment 1007686
Click to expand...
Lol, that would have oiled the valve cover nicely.
 
Question: are the valve springs on on my Edelbrock E-Street #5090 heads to stiff for the stamped steel rockers? Edelbrock rates these springs at 280 pounds at .500", and I've been told factory springs, say from a 440 GTX from 1970, would be less than that, and that could have been a cause of failure. I'm still waiting for the parts to come in, which as I've said before, will be coming from Melling. I'd love to hear if people have some thoughts on the added spring pressure of these heads compared to what would have been used 50 years ago.
 
Basically, the cam and desired rpm limit determine what the required spring load should be.
My recollection is that your motor was built with a fast-ish rate cam, so it’s not going to work very well with stock springs.

In the grand scheme of things, the springs that come on the Ede heads aren’t really that stiff.
Not as stiff as the countless 933 Hemi springs that were installed in BB Mopars for decades, to go along with the new 474/484/509 cams.

The fact that your rocker shows signs of a lack of lubrication points towards........ whatever caused the rocker to run dry and turn blue/black as the main culprit in this instance.
 
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PRHeads said:
Basically, the cam and desired rpm limit determine what the required spring load should be.
My recollection is that your motor was built with a fast-ish rate cam, so it’s not going to work very well with stock springs.

In the grand scheme of things, the springs that come on the Ede heads aren’t really that stiff.
Not as stiff as the countless 933 Hemi springs that were installed in BB Mopars for decades, to go along with the new 474/484/509 cams.
Click to expand...

And most everyone back in the day was using the 933 with the factory stamped rockers.
 
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