New heads - I screwed up the guides and gouge in surface?

rmchrgr said:

OK lesson learned about dressing the keeper grooves before popping out the valves and realize now it's not a quality issue. I told my friend that I am "helping" build this motor that I would eat that repair since it was a error on my part. Just never thought to do that. I feel really bad about it.

I still would like to have the question answered about how to dress the keeper grooves before taking the valves out? What should be used?

On the gouge - I really have no clue how that could have happened. Looking at it from a cost perspective, I think it will be easier to buy a single new head rather than taking them somewhere to have guides and surfacing done to both heads.

Anyone want to buy a single Stealth head that needs the guides cleaned up and has a gouge in the surface?

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I covered it in post #13

Just get a V/Guide "chicken ball" small Hone.... quick up and down a few times under clean solvent and run it

OK OK, I got it! I admit my ignorance and also admit that I screwed up.

rmchrgr said:

OK OK, I got it! I admit my ignorance and also admit that I screwed up.

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Look, ur NOT gonna "replace" one head because it gouged up the Guides, this ain't a Race effort with narrow narrow 'edge of valve' custom seat widths and GUNGA V/Spring pressures where Rocker action would cause premature guide wear is it ?

If it's just a Flat tappet Cam deal and V/Spring pressures the guides will live just fine.... especially with the Std Stealth seat widths
just go BUY a FlexHone "chicken-Ball" style guide hone..... a few strokes up and down under clean solvent...just to de-burr the gouges in the guides, DO NOT try to hone out the gouges... and run it !
Just think of the gouges as 'extra' Oil galleries to keep the guides lubed

What grit hone for the guides? 240? 400?

Also, shouldn't I be using cutting fluid and not solvent?

rmchrgr said:

What grit hone for the guides? 240? 400?

Also, shouldn't I be using cutting fluid and not solvent?

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You aren't "honing" the guides.... you merely wish to remove/cleanup the edges of the "gouges" in the guides with the Flexhone.... CLEAN solvent only just to remove the teensie bit of bronze from the guide as you go.
DO NOT try to remove the gouges in the guides.... just a quick up and down 3-4 times and OUT.

240 is OK.... only a couple of strokes.... just so the Valves go back in easy AFTER you file off the Burrs.
https://goodson.com/collections/flex-hones/products/valve-guide-flex-hones

And if the Head Gasket ain't running/sealing over the gouge forget about that as well.

Challenger340 said:

And if the Head Gasket ain't running/sealing over the gouge forget about that as well.

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Agree with Challenger340.

Also, as mentioned, valve guides need to be measured. Intakes can be a bit tighter than exhausts. Exhausts need extra lubrication due to the heat, so are typically set just a bit looser.

PRHeads said:

As has already been said........ the reason the valves don’t come out is from a burr that’s been raised on the upper lip of the keeper groove by the stamped locks.
This is not a 440 Source thing.
It’s the same for any head with stiff springs using stamped single square lock groove style locks.
Having to file off the burr on the valve before sliding it out of the guide is SOP.

If the heads use machined locks instead of stamped, the burr usually doesn’t occur.

Many budget oriented heads use stamped locks.

The typical ootb guide clearance on Stealth heads is about .0020, which is plenty.

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I have always upgraded to better locks and never heard of this.These days I started using radial locks. Either way the valves should be able to spin in the guide with little to no resistance.

I went over the keeper grooves on two valves with a nail file and that seemed to help. The guides don't look too bad really, just in a few spots where the edge dug in and were spun around. Maybe I can just run a brush through them.

Hard to see in the pic but all the locks all have these little creases in the center of the tops. Guess that could cause a burr...

Hi chrgr,....bad about your vguide issues..That bent/folded lock is Not normal ! Just never seen that ?? ..Just for clarity, did the valve stem feel to slide out freely up until the stem groove entered the guide or were things tight from first movement ? ...just tryn to grip the whole issue as your springs aren't That stiff....thx,......tom.

rmchrgr said:

I went over the keeper grooves on two valves with a nail file and that seemed to help. The guides don't look too bad really, just in a few spots where the edge dug in and were spun around. Maybe I can just run a brush through them.

Hard to see in the pic but all the locks all have these little creases in the center of the tops. Guess that could cause a burr...
View attachment 1076655

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Pretty sure those are garden variety stamped valve locks and the “crease” is a tool mark. Seen it before. If you want better you need machined, and hardened, locks.

An easy way to dress valve lock grooves is with a suction cup like for lapping valves. Put it on the valve, insert in a cordless drill on a low speed. You can spin it while using scotchbrite or 600 grit wet paper to take the sharp edge off. Keep dressing the valve till it drops out. The only time a hammer should be used on a engine is when installing pistons with the rubber handle. This pretty much goes for everything if you have to force it somethings not right, take a step back and figure it out before it becomes a bigger problem.

This isn't rocket science people. The locks are Pioneer PF555HD which ARE hardened. These are the replacements I use for single groove 11/32" valves. Yes, they are stamped, and work just fine for street applications. If you want machined & hardened locks, they are available too, not to mention in +0.050" and -0.050" to adjust spring height. The burr is NORMAL, and I have to file most valves, OEM and aftermarket valves, in order to remove them. Chrysler 4 groove exhaust valves are probably the worst. The 4 grooves wear and create 4 sharp lips preventing the removal until dressed with a file. Rotate the valve head in one hand, and dress the stem with the other until the valve will come out.

To the OP, use a flat file (fine-NOT course), until you don't feel resistance carefully dressing the stems at the keeper area, use a "Ball Hone" to condition the guides, then clean and put it all back together. I use WD40 to hone, and contrary to opinion, it doesn't really matter what you use. You only need to stroke few times per guide (6 to 8), and use carb or brake cleaner to clean them.

What head gasket is that? You could try the felpro marine gasket 17059, or a 4.500 bore cometic gasket if that one is on the scratch, also what bore and top chamfer do you have? Some blocks you have to run a 4.5 bore gasket so it does not overhang the bore. I would hone the guides, clean up the grooves, and run comp machined locks, $25 it is worth it.

Don't the manufacturers ream the guides to finish size. That's a pretty rough looking guide.

There is a lot on this thread that makes me go........

Bring it to a good shop and have them checked . Took my new Stealths to my shop. They recut the seats, milled them, checked the guides and equaled out the chamber ccs. $450 later they were OK. I would have opted for a better head, but I wanted the factory look.

OK so I’m not throwing myself off the Brooklyn Bridge here, nor is my hair on fire. These heads are not mine. I wanted to do right by my friend but unfortunately at the time I posted this thread I was not sure how to proceed. I try but I don’t know everything!

Regarding hitting stuff with a hammer - it was just a soft rubber mallet to tap the valves out. Yes, obviously I should have stopped at that point and filed down the grooves before popping them out but I didn't. Lesson learned, I will never do it again. All the heads I’ve ever worked on have never had this particular issue to this extent. This was obviously a self/created problem and nothing to do with the Stealth heads.

Since my last entry here, all the lock grooves have been cleaned up and the stems were polished. All good now, no more burrs, smooth as a baby's behind. If the heads have to be dissembled again, I will be sure to run a file over the grooves before removing the valves.

Also - I’m not touching the guides with anything other than a cleaning brush. Besides not being a machinist with the proper equipment, I don’t even have an inside mic to measure them with. I should, but I don’t. Have a nice set of Mitutoyo outside micrometers in a lovely wooden storage box but alas, no inside ones. I don’t want to create more problems by even just trying to lightly clean these guides with a ball hone. Maybe I'd get the hang of it after a few times but guarantee the first few would not be right.

Either way, doing it without any way of obtaining accurate measurements seems to be a sure fire way to create more problems. Is what it is, the guy driving the car won't know the difference whether there are a few small scratches in his valve guides or not.

In regards to the keepers, we may end up getting new, +.050” ones anyway because there appears to be insufficient installed height for our springs. The + .050” would raise the retainer and then we shim for proper height as needed. We need 1.880” installed height and at least on the one head that was measured so far, the shortest height is 1.840”.

In reality though, we will probably be OK without doing anything since the cam is relatively mild in lift @ .530" intake, .536" exhaust while spring coil bind is way beyond those numbers at .680" lift. Regardless, coil bind will be checked at our lift numbers and addressed accordingly if needed.

On the gouge - I misunderstood about what was being said about the relationship of the scratch to the gasket fire ring. A hot spot is probably not as much of a concern as a combustion leak would be since part of the gouge does intersect the ring. It’s possible the gasket will seal it but that's the $64,000 question. I think there are a few options to take care of it on the bench and not have to take them to get surfaced but if not, there’s always that option.

Thanks to everyone who has replied and if you are reading this, thanks Doug!