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Went back to a carb

CoronetDarter

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Back in 2015 as I was getting nearer to completing the Coronet resto I decided to ditch the carb and go with EFI. The car was being built as a driver, something my wife could jump in and drive with no drama. That summer FiTech had taken SEMA by storm with their $995 throttle body EFI; ECM built into the TB so you didn't have to carve up the firewall running a bunch of wires. At the same time they released their Fuel Command Center or FCC; essentially a 1 quart fuel sump with a built-in electric fuel pump and regulator that was installed in the engine compartment. You kept the stock mechanical fuel pump and plumbed the low pressure fuel line into the FCC inlet, and the outlet pumped 58 psi to the TB. On paper it was a great idea; you keep your entire fuel delivery system stock in case you ever wanted to go back to carb (foreshadowing?).
I bought into the hype, ignoring my own rule about not being a guinea pig on new product releases. It was an easy install and when the car was finally roadworthy in early 2016 it fired right up. I ran the two wires for the handheld controller through the clutch pedal grommet in the firewall and hung the controller above the dash in the FiTech supplied stalk.
The unit never ran "right"; low idle like it wanted to die, surging at WOT. And it had a hot start issue related to heat soak. I could stop for gas and the car would start right up. But stop off for lunch or a quick beer at the local brewery and after 15 -20 minutes it wouldn't start. It would prime but nothing afterwards. I wound up carrying starter fluid in the trunk and I'd have to use it every time the car was stopped for 15+ minutes. I subscribed to a dozen EFI threads and forums, read hundreds of pages of posts, watched hours of Youtube, emailed and talked to FiTech tech countless times. I dialed in the IAC, fiddled with the Prime Mult and the Hot Start Crank.
I could prattle on forever about all issues but I'll condense the timeline to keep everyone from nodding off. In 2018 the fuel pump in the FCC died while entering the Mopars in the Park show in Rancho Cordova - had to be towed home. At that point I was ready to go back to a carb, but I had invested so much time and money into the system, plus everyone was saying it's the FCC. So the car sat for a few months while I collected all the parts from Tanks Inc. to convert to an intank pump. Got it running winter of 2018 but still couldn't solve the hot start issue.
Spring of 2019 the car was surging again and then one day it died coming to a stop sign. I was able to restart it again after about 30 seconds and went upon my way. Several days later it happened again. This time I turned around and headed home and the car died again for good as I was pulling into the garage. Long story short, FiTech took the unit back and shipped me a refurbed Gen II unit with the 4+2 harness (separating the power circuits) replacing the original 6 pin harness. To their credit, it was almost 4 years since purchase and they didn't charge me anything, not even shipping. That's either a) great customer service or, b) the felt obligated. Didn't matter, I figured I had a new and improved unit and could finally start enjoying my car. Well, the car ran fine but still couldn't solve the hot start heat soak issue. Then last year the handheld controller died. My neighbor across the street has the same FiTech unit in his pickup truck so I plugged it in and it lit up. I had a bad controller. To make matters worse, the original controller with a 2 bullet-plug input (which had sold on Summit for $100) was discontinued. Turns out over the last four years some FiTech engineer stumbled across the cutting-edge new fangled technology called a 'USB cable', converted their handheld controllers, and felt so proud of their new technology that they doubled the price to $200 (you know how pricey those USB cables can be).
At that point I was done. I had struggled for five years and in that time every major piece of hardware had failed at least once. I had to suck it up and come to grips with the wasted time and money, and the wasted moments of not enjoying driving my car for 4+ years.
 
Once I finally made the decision to leave the EFI world, I needed a carb. I went with the Edelbrock AVS2 800 cfm w/electric choke, model #1913, along with an Eddy carb tuning kit. My Dart has an Eddy 750, model 1407 and I've driven that car down to LA for Spring Fling, up past 6000' to go camping in the Sierras, and everywhere in between. So it was an easy decision to go with the AVS2.
Converting from EFI to carb is much easier than the other way, you just need a carb, regulator, and new fuel filter. I'm retaining the Tanks Inc. pump but the LS style filter/regulator has to go because its calibrated at 58 psi.
I got an Eddy fuel regulator to knock the pressure down to 6.5 psi, and an Earl's 40 micron inline filter.

IMG_5470.JPG

Fortunately I was able to reuse the fuel tank outlet hose, the homerun hose up to the engine compartment, and the return hose back to the tank, all without having to modify. The only new line I had to build was between the filter and the regulator. This is the mock up stage; the new regulator mounted in place of the original. The red wire is the power for the electric fuel pump.
IMG_5476.JPG
 
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That day in the park, I remember driving up before I even knew it was you. I thought...Hey, that is a great looking car!
I remember when you were talking to a guy while waiting for the tow truck. You were pissed about the situation and seemed to be regretting the FITech system. The other guy was trying to help and asked..."What is it that you want from the car?" As if he were trying to assess whether EFI was worth your investment.
Your response was classic...."What do I want? I want to NOT have to have it towed all the time."
I don't know if I laughed out loud but that was friggin funny.
Guys like Dennis that went with the more expensive EFI have still had troubles. He puked 2 fuel pumps on the way from Louisiana to California, having to be towed and fixed both times. Big bucks.
He justified the EFI conversion to correct a hot weather and/or high altitude performance problem.
When I first screwed my car together, it had a bad vapor lock problem. I tried rerouting the fuel line, wrapping it in that silvery blanket/sleeve stuff and even a different pump. Each change helped a little but the vapor lock still sometimes happened. Then I put in a Carter high volume fuel pump with a pressure regulator with a return line. Without a regulator, the pump showed 11 PSI on the inline gauge! With it, It idles at 3.5 psi and cranks up to 7 under throttle. All the rest goes back to the tank so I'm always getting cooler fuel. I've driven in 110 degree weather, shut it down and restarted it.
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It isn't the fuel injection that makes the difference, or maybe it isn't just fuel injection. For me, it was keeping the fuel moving instead of sitting near the engine getting hotter and hotter...

Tomorrow you'll test drive and report back?
 
What an ordeal Rich. You had way more patience than I would have. Kind of glad I have stuck with carbs on my cars....
 
I went with the Edelbrock AVS2 800 cfm w/electric choke

I've thought about an EFI unit for some time, and figured it was an eventuality (much like a Gear Vendors unit). In the meantime, I researched various carbs; sought advice from the clan here on FBBO; talked with local guys. After all that I plopped down the dough for a new AVS2 also. It just went on this week, so today is the day I'll fire it up.
I appreciate hearing of your experience with EFI. Maybe it's best to stay with the old-school carb setup. I went with the 650 version of the AVS2, and I suspect I'll be very happy with my choice.
 
It's funny how the only times I've ever been towed (multiple) were with EFI. My 470" low-deck is back to a Holley Ultra XP carb. Similar stories and situations, swapping fuel pumps and tuning with my laptop on the side of the highway. The worst part about the ordeal is I was on the original FiTech FB group, watched as the owners community provided far more customer support and tuning advice than the manufacturer (they saved FiTech). I said to myself, that's a debacle and went with a proven brand with an 'improved' product, Holley. Huge mistake! Same amount of hardware issues as the FiTech, injector and ECU failures were normal. Must have seen hundreds of failed ECU & Injector posts over the years on the FB group - everyone in denial until it happened to them. Really, parts failure was so common early on, I ended up creating a group document that displayed all the user serviceable component part numbers (from local auto stores, not Holley) and what vehicles they were off of. Must have spent hundreds of hours learning and tuning EFI, only to be towed two or three times in two years. Just like yourself, I told Holley I'm done after the last ECU failure and it's never going back on the car. Thankfully they allowed me to return the unit for a credit and purchased the Ultra XP in it's place, amazing carb. I'll continue tuning with my wideband with carbs unless it's OEM EFI (LS / Gen III Hemi). Interestingly, a good friend has a FiTech 1200 on a turbo low-deck and hasn't had too many issues with it over the years, he really enjoys it. I want to say he also added a large fluid cooler in the rear to prevent fuel percolation which gave him issues, even with a large return line and Aeromotive BRFPR.
 
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The FiTech TB, ready to be removed.
View attachment 1089127

Edelbrock AVS2.
View attachment 1089128
Just checking in on this picture....I cannot see clearly enough if you have a dedicated return line going back to the fuel tank. Initially with the Sniper, I tried using a Holley Filter/Return unit and it was not successful (pictured below)
upload_2021-3-27_23-13-6.png


The fuel MUST flow through the Sniper (and presumably all TBI units) to give an accurate flow. The flow of fuel also helps to maintain a cooling effect. "Dead-heading" the pressure and bypassing back to the tank will give unreliable pressure and volume at the TBI.

Now, just in case you do have the correct flow and return lines installed....this advice might be useful to anyone else contemplating a shortcut. :)
 
I remember you talking about the issues in my Sniper EFI thread and I don't blame you for switching back. The 800cfm AVS2 is a helluva good carb and they are usually good to go out of the box.
 
Yes, towed three times since the Pro Flo 4 install. All three due to fuel delivery. Nothing ahead of the firewall ever hiccuped. Start up and drivability good and fuel seems to be sorted now. Time will tell.
 
I must be lucky, MSD Atomic. 5 years and not a glitch! I would never go back!
 
Your situation sounds eerily similar to a good buddy of mine. Bought an early fitech system and had the exact issues as you. Hot restart issues for over 2yrs. After numerous back and forth with fitech the finally agreed to take a look at the unit. They were fortunately about to recreate the issues on one of their cars and found some bad solder joints. They replaced it with one of their newer pieces and he's had zero issues since...
On to that AVS2, I just installed one on a customer's 61 Bonneville.... what a great piece. It's actually making me consider switching over from holley!
 
Wow, sorry to hear about all of the negative aspects of some of the guys having these issues with the EFI's. I must be the lucky one so far. I have a FiTech 400 Street series on my Charger and so far it's been a great improvement. It's been on for 4 years now and no complaints.....yet. I probably just fucked myself with that statement.:rolleyes:
 
a set of points and a carb will get you home every time (and a spare condenser in the glove box)
 
Sorry you had troubles but I will never go back to a carb on a street driven car. Frankly I know nothing about FI Tech but my Holley Sniper is great. Car runs light years better than with a carburetor, its laughable how much better it is. Yes, had some teething issues at first but it’s all good now, I don’t even think about it.

I would say that for optimal performance, everything has to be in good working order - wiring, fuel delivery and ignition. The electronics need clean, reliable voltage.

It’s a little bit more of an investment up front but it’s best to get all the peripheral parts the system was designed to use like the in-tank pump, ignition box and distributor. It will save headaches later since you’re not trying to come up with workarounds when the disparate components don’t play nice with each other.
 
My EFI problems sound very similar. I converted my 71 Cuda from carb to Edelbrock Gen 1 EFI with their version on the sump kit for the under-hood electric fuel pump. Late last fall the sump failed and I was towed home (tow of shame). The broken down cuda still sits in my garage. I'm torn between replacing the sump ($500) or going back to carb. When the efi works its great! But when their is a problem, a carb is easy to figure out and cheap to fix. Efi is not.
 
Dang, sorry to hear about the bad luck with the EFI kits!!!!
I have been day dreaming about a Holley or FI tech EFI, but now I am having 2nd thoughts!!!
I have read a lot of people (not just Mopars) have had issues with the FI TECH working correctly on duel plane intakes. And having to add a spacer or go to single plane, to sort out tuning issues. ( some guys grind the divider on the duel plane down a bit)
That started to sway me toward the Holley Sinper, as I run a duel plane,but I think I may just hold off and keep rocking the old carb.
 
I wouldn’t even consider any other Edelbrock Carb now that these AVS 2 are now made

You couldn’t give me a 1407/1411 for other then a door stopper

Anyways

I have installed four of them on friends cars , including mine a few years ago when the 800 AVS 2 first came out

I did pop the tops on all four brand new before installation , two of the four had pretty bad factory float adjustments but other then that , smoooooth is the word I like

Especially off idle and cruise
 
That day in the park, I remember driving up before I even knew it was you. I thought...Hey, that is a great looking car!
I remember when you were talking to a guy while waiting for the tow truck. You were pissed about the situation and seemed to be regretting the FITech system. The other guy was trying to help and asked..."What is it that you want from the car?" As if he were trying to assess whether EFI was worth your investment.
Your response was classic...."What do I want? I want to NOT have to have it towed all the time."
I don't know if I laughed out loud but that was friggin funny.
It isn't the fuel injection that makes the difference, or maybe it isn't just fuel injection. For me, it was keeping the fuel moving instead of sitting near the engine getting hotter and hotter...

Tomorrow you'll test drive and report back?
I clearly remember that day; first time either one of my cars had to be towed. And you're right, it's all about fuel movement. The FCC had a return line to the tank, but regardless, the cannister would get so hot after a long drive that you couldn't hold your hands to it. And it was obvious that FiTech rushed the unit into production. After it failed I was talking to a tech at Tanks Inc. and he was keenly aware of the problems; helped him sell many more tanks. He pointed out the instructions for setting the PWM on the original FCCs (2015) referenced too low a number (I'm trying to remember back 5+ years so don't quote on the settings), it should be 70 PWM instead the original 35 - 40. Too low a number burns up the pump. Later install instructions referenced the higher rate.
Spoiler alert - I've driven the car twice since the swap but I have keep you in suspense for just a little while longer.
 
What an ordeal Rich. You had way more patience than I would have. Kind of glad I have stuck with carbs on my cars....
Yeah, it comes down to how you use the car, how miles driven in a year, elevation changes, etc. I'm not going to turn this into an EFI bashing thread, and I know many guys that have successful EFI installs, my neighbor is one them. I'm no ace tuner by any means, but I can tune an Eddy carb easier than an EFI system so I'm sticking to my strengths.
 
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