Bellhousing runout question

biomedtechguy · Apr 21, 2021

I bought 2 of these kits, one for my Roadrunner and one for the GTO. Tell them the size of your bellhousing transmission side opening. Red part mounts to the crankshaft, and the ring slides into the opening of the bellhousing. Put a light in the bellhousing and the gap should be the same all around the ring. If not, adjust accordingly. Simple, no math, no risk of a magnetic base moving or slack in the elbow joints of the alignment arms.
https://www.hotrod.com/articles/hppp-1210-how-to-align-bellhousing/
https://www.browellbellhousing.com/components.html#

zyzzyx · Apr 21, 2021

So two bolts hold it to the crank. I hope you check the runout on the red "Thingy"
before you do your check! It needs to be checked and it needs to be Zero. If not,
you can't trust it. Nice idea, but still need to check.

Fran Blacker · Apr 21, 2021

Think that tool is to expensive for a one time use.

Daves69 · Apr 21, 2021

70chall440 said:
I am not sure what has happened but I put a lot of 4 speeds in a lot of vehicles and never once ever checked run out....

IMO, I believe one can get away with more runout using the bushing for a pilot. Too much may bind and cause the input shaft to act engaged.
For a bearing pilot, you are closer to the work, so a tighter tolerance may well be needed. The closer to center one can get it, the better in either scenario.

I've never used the bearing, but I find picture #6 and the explanation in this link may be helpful to those going to the bearing........

Project Slick 1973 Dodge Challenger: Implanting The 416ci (hotrod.com)

biomedtechguy · Apr 21, 2021

zyzzyx said:
So two bolts hold it to the crank. I hope you check the runout on the red "Thingy"
before you do your check! It needs to be checked and it needs to be Zero. If not,
you can't trust it. Nice idea, but still need to check.

No, no need to check, JMO. I understand why you say that, but the gap is so small between the ring and the edge of the bellhousing opening, and the red part mounts flush on the crankshaft.

Fran Blacker said:
Think that tool is to expensive for a one time use.

If you think so, you don't know how expensive it is when you get the runout wrong. Also, the way I use my car, I have had the transmission in and out several times. The cost of the TKO600 going in the GTO justifies this investment IMO, and both cars are likely to have the clutch disc(s) changed again, so I use that tool every time the bellhousing comes off.
In the case of my Roadrunner, I am going to change bellhousings when the Bill Mitchell aluminum block goes in, and I kept all 3 pair of offset dowel pins I bought from Robb Mc because I may well need them. I have 2 new zero offset dowels in my factory aluminum bellhousing, because it didn't require any offset.

vintage chromoly · Apr 21, 2021

I once ran across the street drunk and didn’t get hit by a car. Doesn’t make it a good idea.

check and correct runout. :thumbsup:

Jeremiah · Apr 21, 2021

My understanding was that the factory align honed the register hole in the bellhousing off off the cranks main bearing journal centerline. There are picture of this process floating around IIRC.

I have done them both ways depending on the history of the parts and intended use. IMO Lakewood is the worst offender. Not even close on the runout and not square to the block either. Super irritating for the money they charge for those things. Especially because they don't even have a removable window to work on the clutch unless you pay stupid money. Then pay to re-cert your modified bell, shipping, etc.

Original bellhousing + unmolested block = no indicate
Original bellhousing + align bore/hone block = indicate
Aftermarket bellhousing + any block = indicate
You like doing things twice (or 3x) = no indicate

If you are using an aftermarket bellhousing, especially a scattershield/block plate combo, you will have enough fun sorting out the clutch fork and bell crank geometry to not warrant fighting with excessive runout. I have three Lakewood bellhousings and one Quicktime. They all needed work to be usable. As stated above intended use needs to be factored into the acceptable runout. I like to keep the higher RPM/Power shifted cars pretty tight (<=.003 indicator reading) and for instance my beater off road dump truck didn't get fussed with a .017. Both work great for their intended purpose.

biomedtechguy · Apr 21, 2021

I would imagine if anyone "with tenure" on the forum needed

Jeremiah said:
Original bellhousing + unmolested block = no indicate Original bellhousing + align bore/hone block = indicate Aftermarket bellhousing + any block = indicate You like doing things twice (or 3x) = no indicate

Have a problem with the input shaft bearing going out, and other possible damage to a $5k plus 5 speed? Because of the input shaft bearing a side load that it's not intended to bear? Transmission not shifting properly, popping out of gear, or gear and internal friction surface excessive wear? Miss a shift? Miss an annual show, or week long annual event that you love to participate in? Have your $50K vehicle out of service?
IF you align the bellhousing by doing a runout check, then those problems are far less likely, some manufacturers REQUIRE a runout check or NO WARRANTY.

Fran Blacker said:
Think that tool is to expensive for a one time use.

That is all a matter of perspective.

Fran Blacker · Apr 21, 2021

There cheaper alternatives that are accurate.

biomedtechguy · Apr 21, 2021

Fran Blacker said:
There cheaper alternatives that are accurate.

That's great.
I tried a magnetic base dial gauge, and it measured out that my bellhousing did not require any offset.
Several years later, last Fall, the Browell jig said the same.
BUT
I didn't trust the magnetic base.
I trust the Browell and it's SO EASY to use!

4406bbl · Apr 22, 2021

Jeremiah said:
My understanding was that the factory align honed the register hole in the bellhousing off off the cranks main bearing journal centerline. There are picture of this process floating around IIRC.

I have done them both ways depending on the history of the parts and intended use. IMO Lakewood is the worst offender. Not even close on the runout and not square to the block either. Super irritating for the money they charge for those things. Especially because they don't even have a removable window to work on the clutch unless you pay stupid money. Then pay to re-cert your modified bell, shipping, etc.

Original bellhousing + unmolested block = no indicate
Original bellhousing + align bore/hone block = indicate
Aftermarket bellhousing + any block = indicate
You like doing things twice (or 3x) = no indicate

If you are using an aftermarket bellhousing, especially a scattershield/block plate combo, you will have enough fun sorting out the clutch fork and bell crank geometry to not warrant fighting with excessive runout. I have three Lakewood bellhousings and one Quicktime. They all needed work to be usable. As stated above intended use needs to be factored into the acceptable runout. I like to keep the higher RPM/Power shifted cars pretty tight (<=.003 indicator reading) and for instance my beater off road dump truck didn't get fussed with a .017. Both work great for their intended purpose.

I think you are right that the hole was finish bored to the crank, just like the output shaft bushing was machined after it was installed in the housing.
I know you are right about the Lakewoods, they will be off in both directions. I can tell you this about a a833 4-speed, if you have one off by .060, it will destroy the input bearing, and the input nub and rollers on the output shaft, along with wallowing the input gear and countershaft, the pilot bearing will also be junk, a bushing just worn. Just rebuilt one for a guy that did not check it, only thing we reused was the trans case, everything else was destroyed or brinneled from metal filings. It also never shifted well, it does now.

Jeremiah · Apr 22, 2021

The reason i prefer a dial indicator is you can check to see if the bell is square to the block along with measuring for concentricity.

AR67GTX · Apr 22, 2021

wasco said:
The bell opening checks out - 4 13/16 all around. And as far as the runout on the flywheel, I’d hope it’s fine since it’s a new part (Jegs 601400) but I guess you never know. I’ll see if I can set up the dial on the block to check that.

Do not assume a new flywheel is fine. I bought a new Hays once that was so warped it took two machining to get it flat again.

wasco · Apr 24, 2021

Update: the offset dowels have arrived from RobbMc - luckily they didn’t fall out the massive hole torn in the box at some point. One of the original pins came out fine, but the other is putting up a fight. Tomorrow, I’ll weld a piece of flat iron to the end of it and hopefully be able to twist it free. Unless someone has a better idea.

biomedtechguy · Apr 25, 2021

wasco said:
One of the original pins came out fine, but the other is putting up a fight. Tomorrow, I’ll weld a piece of flat iron to the end of it and hopefully be able to twist it free. Unless someone has a better idea

One of my original dowels had to have a piece welded to it to get it out.

493 Mike · Apr 25, 2021

wasco said:
Update: the offset dowels have arrived from RobbMc - luckily they didn’t fall out the massive hole torn in the box at some point. One of the original pins came out fine, but the other is putting up a fight. Tomorrow, I’ll weld a piece of flat iron to the end of it and hopefully be able to twist it free. Unless someone has a better idea.

I welded a big nut on one of mine-just the heat from welding helps a lot.
Mike

66 Sat · Apr 25, 2021

biomedtechguy said:
I bought 2 of these kits, one for my Roadrunner and one for the GTO. Tell them the size of your bellhousing transmission side opening. Red part mounts to the crankshaft, and the ring slides into the opening of the bellhousing. Put a light in the bellhousing and the gap should be the same all around the ring. If not, adjust accordingly. Simple, no math, no risk of a magnetic base moving or slack in the elbow joints of the alignment arms.
https://www.hotrod.com/articles/hppp-1210-how-to-align-bellhousing/
https://www.browellbellhousing.com/components.html#
View attachment 1100575

If and when I do my 4 spd conversion I'll be budgeting for one of these tools. You could always sell it after the job's finished and tested, and recoup some of the money, but regardless it would give me peace of mind. After reading a few conversion threads (including Kern Dog's), measuring the runout seems like a real tricky part of the job, especially doing the job on jackstands.

biomedtechguy · Apr 25, 2021

66 Sat said:
If and when I do my 4 spd conversion I'll be budgeting for one of these tools. You could always sell it after the job's finished and tested, and recoup some of the money, but regardless it would give me peace of mind. After reading a few conversion threads (including Kern Dog's), measuring the runout seems like a real tricky part of the job.

Look, I have no problem using precision equipment, I do it as part of my work. NOT as much as a machine shop, not even close, but I'm no dummy, and I graduated with honors, and my curriculum involved some advanced math, and lots of problem solving.
Obviously I like the Browell tool concept, and if you want to know "how far" the runout is off (IF it's off) use a feeler gauge set to measure the gap(s).
I know I'll use mine again, certainly in the Roadrunner, and in the GTO too, especially if the HitMaster launch control system in the Roadrunner is all I expect it to be. Then the GOAT gets one, so my wife can launch consistently too, by side stepping the clutch once the HitMaster is dialed in. (Or me, when I drive the GTO, because I shift better, lol)
That means a dual disc clutch for the GTO, and once again, the transmission and bellhousing come out.
WELL WORTH IT!

vintage chromoly · Apr 25, 2021

Use a #7 drill bit, and drill a hole in the center of the dowel. (There’s a gap between the bottom of the dowel and the bottom of the dowel hole in the block)
Thread the #7 hole with a 1/4-20” tap.

Insert a 1/4-20 bolt and, as you tighten it, the dowel will come right out.

wasco said:
Update: the offset dowels have arrived from RobbMc - luckily they didn’t fall out the massive hole torn in the box at some point. One of the original pins came out fine, but the other is putting up a fight. Tomorrow, I’ll weld a piece of flat iron to the end of it and hopefully be able to twist it free. Unless someone has a better idea.

Cranky · Apr 25, 2021

biomedtechguy said:
I bought 2 of these kits, one for my Roadrunner and one for the GTO. Tell them the size of your bellhousing transmission side opening. Red part mounts to the crankshaft, and the ring slides into the opening of the bellhousing. Put a light in the bellhousing and the gap should be the same all around the ring. If not, adjust accordingly. Simple, no math, no risk of a magnetic base moving or slack in the elbow joints of the alignment arms.
https://www.hotrod.com/articles/hppp-1210-how-to-align-bellhousing/
https://www.browellbellhousing.com/components.html#
View attachment 1100575

I never use a mag base to hold a dial indicator when doing bell housing checks....not when the crank has threaded holes in it!

Earlier when I mentioned large diameter shafts for holding the indicator, I'm talking about custom made ones with a threaded male stub that has a shoulder to screw into the crank and face up to it. Don't know if there are ones out on the market just for this but having a lathe and a milling machine helps with not having to pay high prices for the custom stuff....after all, already paid the high prices for the machines to make custom stuff lol

Jeremiah said:
My understanding was that the factory align honed the register hole in the bellhousing off off the cranks main bearing journal centerline. There are picture of this process floating around IIRC.

I have done them both ways depending on the history of the parts and intended use. IMO Lakewood is the worst offender. Not even close on the runout and not square to the block either. Super irritating for the money they charge for those things. Especially because they don't even have a removable window to work on the clutch unless you pay stupid money. Then pay to re-cert your modified bell, shipping, etc.

Original bellhousing + unmolested block = no indicate
Original bellhousing + align bore/hone block = indicate
Aftermarket bellhousing + any block = indicate
You like doing things twice (or 3x) = no indicate

If you are using an aftermarket bellhousing, especially a scattershield/block plate combo, you will have enough fun sorting out the clutch fork and bell crank geometry to not warrant fighting with excessive runout. I have three Lakewood bellhousings and one Quicktime. They all needed work to be usable. As stated above intended use needs to be factored into the acceptable runout. I like to keep the higher RPM/Power shifted cars pretty tight (<=.003 indicator reading) and for instance my beater off road dump truck didn't get fussed with a .017. Both work great for their intended purpose.

If you have access to a milling machine, it's not hard to check the bell housing face run outs before putting it on the engine block. How many check the engine bell housing mounting face first? That should be done too. Anyways, if you have access to a milling machine, make sure the head of the milling head is square with the table before checking the bell housing. Way too many machine shops don't even think about the head/table run outs......and depending on what I'm going to machine or check, the head run out gets checked with a 'last word' dial indicator.

Bellhousing runout question

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