The Great “Matching Numbers” debate So what say you?

I have often seen this topic talked about and argued about on other sites mostly on Facebook
And there is also a topic on this site that someone posted regarding
“matching numbers defined” , which was a very good posting however I’d like to say something different and see what the responses will be.

i’d like to ask certain questions here such as, are numbers matching cars worth more than non-matching cars? Now I’m going to define a numbers matching car that has its original engine, original transmission and original color. I think sticking to those three criteria that are most important when we talk about numbers matching cars. Of course some may nitpick at certain accessories that were added on that were not included in the original build of the car.
Furthermore how important is it to you when you make a purchase of a classic muscle car that it be numbers matching?
How much value do you all think that a numbers matching car has over a non-matching numbers car?
When you are at a car event or your local weekly Saturday or Sunday cruise in, do you find that folks who own numbers matching cars are somewhat snobby? Or when they speak about their cars, they speak in a boasting tone?
Do you think that a non-matching numbers car is looked down upon or do you find when someone asks you if your car is numbers matching and you reply it is not, the tone of the conversation changes? Almost as if “aww that’s too bad”
What does a numbers matching car mean to you or should I say how much does it mean to you to own? Would you pass on a really good car that does not have the correct drive train in it and or the incorrect color.

now for me I own both number matching and non-matching numbers cars. Since most of my cars are all four speed cars, I find it particularly satisfying to find one that has the original numbers matching engine and transmission in it seeing how 95% of our cars that were purchased with four speeds were really purchased by the original owners with one thing in mind and that was to beat the snot out of them to which the original engines and or transmissions were blown up within the first few months. The fact that we sometimes find a numbers matching car in a four-speed version say something at least to me regarding the overall caring in condition of the car over time . That being said I feel most cars that are manual transmission cars that still retain their original drive line lead a more pampered life and were somewhat more particularly cared for thus making that a real good find.

So what say you?

Actually the majority of manual transmission cars/muscle cars, from any manufacturer, were not purchased to race or beat on. An automatic, just like a/c, was an expensive upgrade. Most people bought muscle cars because they were relatively inexpensive, could put their family in it and didn't particularly like 4 doors.

On the subject of numbers matching, unless I'm investing for a future payout from the car, I could care less. And I don't have the kind of money to invest in those kinds of cars. I build them to drive daily and enjoy, not sit in a garage, take out once a month or less and be collected.

Just like anything else, everyone has their particular taste. I tend to look down on those who collect and don't daily their cars. But that's probably envy because I don't have their income to throw at things that are not a necessity.

I own both as well, #s matching, stock bore 1970 340/4spd swinger , and a 68 coronet factory 318 car with a 383 in it now and a bunch of upgrades to make it a better driver.....I for one "enjoy" the coronet more. Mostly because it's not as pretty as the dart, and I don't have to be as careful with it. At least to me. The dart is a blast to drive and great to look at! I never wanted a numbers matching car, never meant much to me. I'm not a collector but more of an "enjoyer" ....I drive mine all year. I tend to look for the non-numbers cars that way I don't feel bad about modifications.

My Bee was beat on for years, driven in Winter's, rotted out to the 9th degree and is still #'s matching other than the rear axle. Hard to kill a 383 x 4 gear. Fully restored with as much NOS as I could find and I'm back to beating on it again... couldn't care less which of mine are #'s and which aren't...

65-440 said:

I own both as well, #s matching, stock bore 1970 340/4spd swinger , and a 68 coronet factory 318 car with a 383 in it now and a bunch of upgrades to make it a better driver.....I for one "enjoy" the coronet more. Mostly because it's not as pretty as the dart, and I don't have to be as careful with it. At least to me. The dart is a blast to drive and great to look at! I never wanted a numbers matching car, never meant much to me. I'm not a collector but more of an "enjoyer" ....I drive mine all year. I tend to look for the non-numbers cars that way I don't feel bad about modifications.

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Good post , well said !

Neither of my cars are numbers matching. I bought my R/T without a powertrain. I scored a 1968 New Yorker 440 and 727 from a junkyard and had it built to Magnum spec's. I dressed it up to look like a '67 Magnum and no one is the wiser. I drove it to Carlisle a couple of times and got 2nd in class trophies with it on the Fun Field. I was happy. The type of shows most of us go to, no one is crawling over the cars, picking them apart for originality. Large shows that have classes for expert judging for originality are avoided because of other liberties I have taken with the car. For the most part, I have not experienced much snobbiness in the Mopar crowd. I have always found that the owners are willing to talk to and educate people on the finer points of their restorations.

Bottom line is - your question is already answered.
There are all manner of market data compilation sites and services out there, after all.
Doesn't matter what one's personal opinions are on whether or not they should be...

Oh, the answer is "yes".

This will always be a never ending argument/discussion. Those who like stock will always want "numbers matching" as it means something, those who like hotrods and modified vehicles will typically care less about this, partially because most cars obtained to be modified are already missing the drive train.

I understand the interest in matching numbers, however I don't share that interest unless it is something unique, rare, etc. but for your run of the mill 318 or perhaps even 383 cars having a matching engine/trans isn't saying a whole lot if performance is the goal.

Value is an entire can of worms that is so situationally dependent that it is a "self licking ice cream cone" argument (meaning it goes round and round). Sure if you are talking about high end/performance cars then having the numbers matching drive train mean something and in some cases where a relatively mundane car is restored (or is a survivor) having the matching drive train has some degree of value. However on the lower end of things (talking 318, 383, /6 cars) I do not think it is nearly as large an issue (in most cases). Point in case, I have a 68 Barracuda FB with a 318 904, etc. It is "matching numbers", but if I decide to build it, I will be ripping that drive train right out and replacing it with something else like a 5.7 and A518. In this case I think the car will be more useful, interesting and most likely valuable in a restomod config than had I left the original drive train in (and no I am not keeping the original stuff for the next guy...).

This myth that matching numbers cars are all worth more than their non-matching siblings is just that, a myth as it relates to run-of-the-mill cars. It depends on the cars themselves and the buyers. You cannot use Hemi and 6 pack cars as the litmus test for all values, it is apples and oranges.

If said it before and I will say it again, a car should be valued based on what it is comprised of, how well it is built, etc. nothing more. At the end of the day these are just man made commodities that many would love to inflate in value to make themselves feel good and more than likely personally benefit from. You ever notice that when you are trying to buy one of these cars they are rare, unique, and special but when you are selling they are common, wore out, not in demand, etc. Thank the "investors", "collectors" and "experts" for that...

Matching numbers started as a Corvette thing. It’s also very much a GM thing. Up until 1972, the VIN on a GM car did not tell you what engine the car came with. The “matching numbers” was what was looked at to prove originality. And... why there are more 427 Corvettes out there than Chevrolet sold new. Here’s a good example. The 1970 Chevelle SS. An LS5 454 was basically a station wagon engine with a different cam and dual exhaust. The LS6 454 had a forged crank, 4 bolt mains, forged 11.1 pistons, square port heads, solid lifters, aluminum intake manifold w/Holley carburetor. Big difference, the VIN and trim tag don’t tell you, the matching number on the block does. Same with Ram Air IV Pontiac, W-30 Olds, and Stage 1 Buick.
Anyone walking up to a Mopar from the muscle car era can see what engine the car came with, by just looking thru the windshield.

DILLIGAF

Numbers matching is worth more IMO. But! There is a huge difference in restored, modified and junker.
Whether or not you choose to restore modify or drive the junker, that is your call. This should be your enjoyment. If you’re going to restore a car, then you better use every nut and bolt that came on the damn car! That should simply go out and get a new wiring harness it sucks. Possibly go out and get a new bulb because that one is semi-rusted. When it comes to restored cars. There is restored and then is original restored. Most guys to come to me and say why did you not restore the car and I say let me see yours. When they open up the hood and everything is shiny & new, radio, wiring harness, brand new master cylinder I say what was wrong with the old one? The car was restored incorrectly. They usually have **** fits curse me out.

Its a pretty simple answer really. All things being equal, i.e condition, between a numbers matching and non numbers matching, the matching will always bring more money.
A semi restored/ running non numbers car will have more value than a barn find of a similiar model that hasnt run in 20-30 years.

BTW, the only reason I bought my Dart, other than the gorgeous colours, was the fact that I was told it wasn't a #'s car so I didn't even bother to look. Plan was to resto mod it some what.. only to find when I tore it down.. matching #'s car. So now it's just another #'s car that I can beat on living on a gravel road.. LOL

glenns hc said:

When you are at a car event or your local weekly Saturday or Sunday cruise in, do you find that folks who own numbers matching cars are somewhat snobby? Or when they speak about their cars, they speak in a boasting tone?

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Yes. When I bring my cuda to a show I see some guys pointing at different things and giving their point of view of the horrors of not being original. I built it for me, not them. If I eventually sell it, most likely they won't be a buyer and I'm ok with that.

Not only is my car not numbers matching, it’s not even a real ‘Bee! Horror of horrors...
But here’s the thing. All old mopars are becoming hard to find in any condition. And I live in the Arctic, where there are virtually none to be found anyway. None.
Wife and I always wanted a ‘70 Super Bee. Not just any ‘Bee, but specifically a B5 blue, white top, “C” stripe and bucket interior car with big block and pistol grip four speed. Now the less sharp among us would point out that “yeah, there’s one for sale right now in (insert the name of some American town) right now.” I’m in the Canadian Arctic. Not going to happen. And just the Super Bee name adds a great deal to an already high price. So we found a ‘70 Coronet locally. Paid $400 for it. It will become our WannaBee. The purists have been sneering at us for more then a decade. We don’t care.

I would prefer a numbers matching muscle car over a non numbers matching muscle car. I say “prefer” but that doesn’t exclude me from owning a non numbers matching car. With that said, comparing apples to apples, a numbers matching muscle car will always be worth more than a non numbers matching muscle car.

A ‘69 318 Satellite with a Gen 3 and 6 speed recently sold on BAT for $85K.

That is more than a # match 383 Road Runner or even a # 440 GTX would probably get.

It seems a lot of buyers are looking to drive the car, and not wait for a judge to climb under and verify an hourly workers job.

I own a numbers matching Hemi GTX. Prior to the purchase, my wife (who has no interest in the hobby whatsoever), said fine, but the numbers have to match. We are at an age we are both quite aware of our mortality, and the issues of liquidating an estate. You find out what "numbers matching" is worth when you sell them. She wanted something she could take to auction, if I predeceased her, and know what to expect. That being said, prior to buying the Hemi, I had been actively looking for a non-numbers '69 GTX I could clone into the one I had loved back in the day, and drive without worry. I couldn't find anything that wasn't IMO greatly over-priced. So I ended up with the high end numbers car, but I appreciate the merits of both, and my numbers car gets driven on a regular basis.

Not much to debate really. Numbers matching drivetrain is a big value add.
My 440 and 727 is from a 1973 something rather so it will detract from the price should I try sell it in the future…. which I won’t!