440 -> 505 Stroker advice

[2Luke2]

Hello everyone, as stated in our intro thread(pics included) my girl and I just pulled the 440 out of our 70 Charger and are in the process of rebuilding it. We have a pretty good parts list in mind, but we are a bit stumped on some of the details and are looking for some advice if a few people with a lot more knowledge have the time and patience for a couple of noobs. We ordered our 505 stroker kit from hughes engines, but it's waiting on pistons. Anyway we wanted to list our parts here and get some advice. We are concerned with our 6000ft altitude and our compression ratio as we have gotten conflicting recommendations from a few different sources. Anyway here it is...

69 440 block bored .40 over. Not decked yet due to not having the rotating assembly on hand and confusion with compression ratio desired for current altitude.
Crank - 4.250 forged crank
Rods - 7.1" chevy
Pistons - forged -4.47cc flat top
Heads - Edelbrock performer rpm 84cc straight out of the box
Rockers - Crane gold roller rockers 1.5 ratio
Cam - We are stuck here... got a couple recommendations from Lunati and Comp Cams we are sticking with the hydro flat tappet for budget reasons.
Comp Cam - Xe275HL
Lunati Voodoo- 10230703 or 10230704 maybe 10230705

Ignition - MSD Ready-to-Run Distributor with 6AL2 box
Carb - Looking for a bigger one, we have a 750 Edelbrock 1411 right now, but know we might need at least an 850.
Headers - TTI 2" with 3" collectors
Exhaust - Undecided brand/size/custom all the above
Gears - We have an 8 3/4 suregrip with 3:91s in the back

The engine should be around 11.5:1 static compression ratio and I think 9.56:1 dynamic if I did my numbers right for the comp cam above... That's a little over what I was shooting for, but was hoping someone would be able to help out with that. We have been told that the 11:1 is great here, but also been told by Hughes that they would go 13:1. Now I know altitude makes a different, but I never knew how much. We only have 91 octane here at the pumps and we don't want to get into trouble if we drive down the mountain a few miles and get into the 4000-5000ft altitude areas. Any help or suggestions would be greatly appreciated!

Thanks!
L&L

 

[benno440]

go the lunati 10230705, is it a race car otherwise keep the 11:1.

900cfm carb minimum I reckon you have slighty more than 505ci .30+ is 505.

everything else sounds perfect. I just completed a 505 build and very similar except I went twin 500 cfm carbs

 

[Hemirunner]

What is your plan with this build? Street, strip, little of both, cruiser??

That cam is way too small even considering your altitude.

OTB Eddy heads will make a big torque, low rpm peak, hp limited tractor motor out of that 4.25 stroker real quick. Not enough port volume or flow. I've had a bunch of them on the dyno. They make great cruiser motors but suck at the strip.

What intake manifold?

If you're dead set on an Edelbrock carb, put a thunder series avs 800 on it (or better yet, two 650's) or go to a big quick fuel.

That ready to run dizzy has a built in ignition and doesn't need a box. You can run it with a box or you can save $100 and buy a different distributor.

 

[2Luke2]

Thanks for the reply guys. I had written out a longer post, but I lost it and had to start over. I knew I was forgetting something. This motor is going to be a daily driver. The intake manifold we had in mind was the dual plane edelbrock performer rpm. The motor might see a max of 6500 rpm so it's definitely not being built for racing, but the woman and I both like to burn the rubber off the tires every now and then.

Hemirunner what cam would you recommend? I forgot to mention we have power brakes, power steering, and A/C so a little vacuum would help. though we wouldn't be apposed to switching to manual brakes if they are streetable. We have just never had them.

We have the al2 box from another build which distributor would you recommend?

The carb we aren't certain about the brand or size we just happened to have the 1411 that was on the motor already so we aren't partial to using it if we need to go bigger.

 

[benno440]

petronix dizzy's are good or the MSD 8646 billet dizzy is also good.
for street a cam around the 250 @.50 is good, eddy heads are also good for the street or save some coin and go stealth heads. agreed with hemirunner on the quickfuel or a demon carb 850-900cfm

 

[Hemirunner]

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/cca-23-713-9/overview/make/chrysler

I'd probably grind a custom but for shelf grinds, this hydraulic roller or this flat tappet.....hyd roller preferred.

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/cca-23-226-4/overview/make/chrysler

 

[IQ52]

Good Lord, why take this poor thing right to the edge? I think its going to rattle like a tambourine at lower elevations. I mean, yeah, I run 93 octane, 11.9:1 compression with 906 heads at 250' elevation and 91 octane 5000" elevation.......for a dyno contest! I don't recommend anyone else do it! Its a street car with a 4.25" stroke, it will boil the hides at 9:1.

 

[Hemirunner]

forgot to mention that I'd also put a 1.6 rocker on it

 

[2Luke2]

petronix dizzy's are good or the MSD 8646 billet dizzy is also good.
for street a cam around the 250 @.50 is good, eddy heads are also good for the street or save some coin and go stealth heads. agreed with hemirunner on the quickfuel or a demon carb 850-900cfm

Benno440 are you referring to the 8546? I didn't see that it had a vacuum advance; since I'm going to be driving back and forth to work I thought I should look for one, but we have never ran a carburetor so we don't know the benefits other than what we read. I looked at the Petronix, but not sure which one I'd go with. I guess I don't have to use the AL2 box and could just try and sell it. I was only trying to make use of it because we had a brand new one laying around in a box. Along with a Chevy e-curve distributor that was never used.

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/cca-23-713-9/overview/make/chrysler

I'd probably grind a custom but for shelf grinds, this hydraulic roller or this flat tappet.....hyd roller preferred.

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/cca-23-226-4/overview/make/chrysler

Roller really worth it for mostly street driving? i read up on them, but didn't see a huge advantage with much higher price required for the other hardware... though I could be mistaken.

- - - Updated - - -

Good Lord, why take this poor thing right to the edge? I think its going to rattle like a tambourine at lower elevations. I mean, yeah, I run 93 octane, 11.9:1 compression with 906 heads at 250' elevation and 91 octane 5000" elevation.......for a dyno contest! I don't recommend anyone else do it! Its a street car with a 4.25" stroke, it will boil the hides at 9:1.

What compression do you run at 5000 ft? I was told that since we are at 6000ft that 11:1 was pretty safe on 91 octane. Did I get some bad information?

forgot to mention that I'd also put a 1.6 rocker on it

I think the 1.6 Rocker would put me above the lift limits on the OTB eddys.

 

[IQ52]

Looks like I confused the issue. 11.9:1 @ 5000' (actually that dyno was at 4400') with 91 octane and iron heads, BUT ITS THE CAMSHAFT THAT LETS ME DO IT! Your girl would most likely hate you if you used a camshaft that was 280 degrees @ .050" lift. But my engine was never ment to be a street engine, I just forced it to go that way. I just think people have been advising you on what you can squeek by with on compression and not what would be safe.

I should just stay out of this. You have your parts and you want a cam choice. Your going to get a thousand different perspectives and the issue will get really confused. Find ONE EXPERIENCED person you want to trust and work with them, because if you average everyone's opinion, and do that, it will be a bad outcome. You will have people advising you that haven't even solved their own detonation issues.

 

[rumblefish360]

Agreed on the comp-ratio issue.
If you stop and think for a minute, what is a point drop in terms of power?
(Not much) considering you also have 500, your going to make a lot of torque.

Run with a lower ratio and be worry free anywhere you go.

 

[2Luke2]

Looks like I confused the issue. 11.9:1 @ 5000' (actually that dyno was at 4400') with 91 octane and iron heads, BUT ITS THE CAMSHAFT THAT LETS ME DO IT! Your girl would most likely hate you if you used a camshaft that was 280 degrees @ .050" lift. But my engine was never ment to be a street engine, I just forced it to go that way. I just think people have been advising you on what you can squeek by with on compression and not what would be safe.

I should just stay out of this. You have your parts and you want a cam choice. Your going to get a thousand different perspectives and the issue will get really confused. Find ONE EXPERIENCED person you want to trust and work with them, because if you average everyone's opinion, and do that, it will be a bad outcome. You will have people advising you that haven't even solved their own detonation issues.

Thanks IQ52, the woman wants a rougher cam than I do lol, but she isn't going to be driving it daily like I will. I'm not looking for anything crazy on the end I just don't want to leave a ton of power on the table just because I want to drive miss daisy around. I would definitely prefer getting something a little too rowdy than tame. Though I do like when I can crank the engine over pretty easily.

- - - Updated - - -

Agreed on the comp-ratio issue.
If you stop and think for a minute, what is a point drop in terms of power?
(Not much) considering you also have 500, your going to make a lot of torque.

Run with a lower ratio and be worry free anywhere you go.

So you think I should drop the compression down from 11.5:1 that my current setup would give me now? The dynamic is somewhere around 9.56 if I did my math right with the comp cam.

 

[Kern Dog]

Good Lord, why take this poor thing right to the edge? I think its going to rattle like a tambourine at lower elevations. I mean, yeah, I run 93 octane, 11.9:1 compression with 906 heads at 250' elevation and 91 octane 5000" elevation.......for a dyno contest! I don't recommend anyone else do it! Its a street car with a 4.25" stroke, it will boil the hides at 9:1.

Anyone read my threads on running 10.7 on the street with the Mopar 292/509 cam? I have learned the hard way that running a 500 inch Mopar stroked engine, high compression and mild camshafts add up to detonation. Learn from history here. Go with less compression or a much bigger cam.

 

[2Luke2]

Anyone read my threads on running 10.7 on the street with the Mopar 292/509 cam? I have learned the hard way that running a 500 inch Mopar stroked engine, high compression and mild camshafts add up to detonation. Learn from history here. Go with less compression or a much bigger cam.

Gregory, I was going for 10:1, but a local shop here said that because we are at 6000ft that I should go towards 11:1 then I was told that I should be looking more for 13:1... so I posted here hoping to get some more opinions. I do appreciate yours as well. I will do a search for your threads, but I think you're at sea level?

 

[IQ52]

Gregory, I was going for 10:1, but a local shop here said that because we are at 6000ft that I should go towards 11:1 then I was told that I should be looking more for 13:1... so I posted here hoping to get some more opinions. I do appreciate yours as well. I will do a search for your threads, but I think you're at sea level?

If you are running on the street at sea level and 11:1 compression, when you go to 6000' elevation your "effective" compression will drop to about 9.8:1, at 4000' elevation 10.2:1. If you start at 13:1 compression and go to 6000' elevation your "effective" compression will be 11.8:1, 4000' elevation 12.2:1.

 

[coloradodave]

Is it just me or is it that everytime somebody asks for recommendations for their 'daily driver' but mentions the word 'stroker' that all the posters start recommending the biggest/baddest race parts? Seriously, does anyone here know what it costs to drive one of these 'almost race' motors to work everyday?
When you get radical on a daily driver, you create a part time job trying to get and keep it running right. If you have to drive it to work everyday, the car won't be fun for very long. As IQ52 said, a motor this size, with a mild build will produce all the smoke you want.

 

[Hemirunner]

Is it just me or is it that everytime somebody asks for recommendations for their 'daily driver' but mentions the word 'stroker' that all the posters start recommending the biggest/baddest race parts? Seriously, does anyone here know what it costs to drive one of these 'almost race' motors to work everyday?
When you get radical on a daily driver, you create a part time job trying to get and keep it running right. If you have to drive it to work everyday, the car won't be fun for very long. As IQ52 said, a motor this size, with a mild build will produce all the smoke you want.

I think the reason you see that is: What's the point of building a 500+ engine and then dumb it down (choke it up? lol) and make a totally mismatched combo?? I mean, if this guy really is going to drive it every day, why even build a stroker? To get a 500+ engine to drive like your mommas buick, you'll have such a mismatched combo that you've cheated yourself out of anything that you gained by going with the stroker in the first place. Build a mild 440 and just tell everyone it's a 505 and save yourself a ton of grief and cash. And Dave, if you really think anything mentioned in this thread is big, bad race parts, then you don't get out much. We street drive F2 Procharged 427ci small block fords, tons of 416ci nitrous engines, big cube nitrous hemis and twin turbo combos around here that use crank triggers, EFI, racepacks and everything else that make this stuff look like small potatoes.

 

[2Luke2]

If you are running on the street at sea level and 11:1 compression, when you go to 6000' elevation your "effective" compression will drop to about 9.8:1, at 4000' elevation 10.2:1. If you start at 13:1 compression and go to 6000' elevation your "effective" compression will be 11.8:1, 4000' elevation 12.2:1.

Thank you for this information! I've looked for something similar, but obviously I wasn't asking the right question. I think I might not 0 deck the block if it's going to be that high. I'm not shooting for the stars with the build so I should be good to go with a bit lower compression.

Is it just me or is it that everytime somebody asks for recommendations for their 'daily driver' but mentions the word 'stroker' that all the posters start recommending the biggest/baddest race parts? Seriously, does anyone here know what it costs to drive one of these 'almost race' motors to work everyday?
When you get radical on a daily driver, you create a part time job trying to get and keep it running right. If you have to drive it to work everyday, the car won't be fun for very long. As IQ52 said, a motor this size, with a mild build will produce all the smoke you want.

It does get rather confusing quick, but just makes you look up more things and learn more so you can try to keep up. Hopefully in the end you can gather all the opinions given together and make the right choice for your specific build based on the data.

I think the reason you see that is: What's the point of building a 500+ engine and then dumb it down (choke it up? lol) and make a totally mismatched combo?? I mean, if this guy really is going to drive it every day, why even build a stroker? To get a 500+ engine to drive like your mommas buick, you'll have such a mismatched combo that you've cheated yourself out of anything that you gained by going with the stroker in the first place. Build a mild 440 and just tell everyone it's a 505 and save yourself a ton of grief and cash. And Dave, if you really think anything mentioned in this thread is big, bad race parts, then you don't get out much. We street drive F2 Procharged 427ci small block fords, tons of 416ci nitrous engines, big cube nitrous hemis and twin turbo combos around here that use crank triggers, EFI, racepacks and everything else that make this stuff look like small potatoes.

Yep we definitely didn't want to dumb it down, but we also wanted it to be semi street friendly. If the cam is so large that I'm carring an extra battery, starter and tools with me just to get it started; it quickly becomes no fun for me. The reason we went this big was because while it will be a daily driver I don't drive to work but a few times a month if that so it won't be that big of a deal hopefully and of course why not lol?

Either way I do appreciate all the help. It seems I'm on the right track with a couple modifications to our list of parts.

I just want to make sure though that the cams suggested here aren't too big for the street. Meaning when either of us get in the car we expect it to start right up... not having to crank on it for 30 seconds waiting for it to light up.

Thanks!

 

[IQ52]

Hemirunner, you tried to point this out from the beginning. It will make a great truck motor. Why even bother with the stroker. With the heads, the rpm of peak horsepower will be probably no higher than 5200 rpm. Will it rev to 6000+? Sure! It just won't be accelerating very fast. Who designed the engine and for what purpose?

For a street 69 Charger, with 3.23 gears and 4-spd manual, we built a 496 with our ported RPM heads, 10.3:1 compression, Torker II intake, 249/255 solid roller, .605/.615 net lift, Q950 Quick fuel. Result, 600 lb-ft 3500-5500 rpm 642 lb-ft @ 4600 and 642 HP @ 5800.

But the same short block with a hydraulic FT 236/244 @.050, .532/.532 lift, Edelbrock RPM heads just cleaned up and an RPM performer intake made 600+ lb-ft from 3400-4400 with a peak of 622 lb-ft @ 3800 and peak horsepower of 565 @ 5300. Almost forgot to mention, I don't like this combination and would never use a cam that small in it again.

The 10.5:1, 515 Ford (4.15 stroke, good heads, intake and solid roller cam) we just finished is at 662 TQ and 781 HP on 91 octane (and it is still making 530 lb-ft at 3000 rpm).

But if you don't have a complete plan at the start, you may end up chasing your tail.

- - - Updated - - -

Its not the cam that makes them hard to start, it's the timing, ignition and carburetion. We've got 13.5:1 and 280/288 cams that light on the first revolution.

 

[2Luke2]

Hemirunner, you tried to point this out from the beginning. It will make a great truck motor. Why even bother with the stroker. With the heads, the rpm of peak horsepower will be probably no higher than 5200 rpm. Will it rev to 6000+? Sure! It just won't be accelerating very fast. Who designed the engine and for what purpose?

For a street 69 Charger, with 3.23 gears and 4-spd manual, we built a 496 with our ported RPM heads, 10.3:1 compression, Torker II intake, 249/255 solid roller, .605/.615 net lift, Q950 Quick fuel. Result, 600 lb-ft 3500-5500 rpm 642 lb-ft @ 4600 and 642 HP @ 5800.

But the same short block with a hydraulic FT 236/244 @.050, .532/.532 lift, Edelbrock RPM heads just cleaned up and an RPM performer intake made 600+ lb-ft from 3400-4400 with a peak of 622 lb-ft @ 3800 and peak horsepower of 565 @ 5300. Almost forgot to mention, I don't like this combination and would never use a cam that small in it again.

The 10.5:1, 515 Ford (4.15 stroke, good heads, intake and solid roller cam) we just finished is at 662 TQ and 781 HP on 91 octane (and it is still making 530 lb-ft at 3000 rpm).

But if you don't have a complete plan at the start, you may end up chasing your tail.

- - - Updated - - -

Its not the cam that makes them hard to start, it's the timing, ignition and carburetion. We've got 13.5:1 and 280/288 cams that light on the first revolution.

The parts list was put together by my girl and I the purpose was to drive a car with a bit of a kick when we felt like it. We weren't aiming for the highest HP motor we could build though. We just wanted to know if we were making a huge mistake with the parts list for a street motor in high altitude or any other obvious mistakes. We put the parts list together knowing it wouldn't be making power much after 5800-6k, but we aren't trying to take it to the track either. So we figured that was good enough for us.

We have a plan, but we just wanted to get some other car enthusiast's opinions which is what we are getting here. Either way thank you for the comments IQ52.