440 build recommendations??

[hunt2elk]

I was wondering if some of you engine guys could give some input for a decent motor build. This will be going in my 69 Charger 4-speed Dana 3.54 and will probably be running 275/60/15 rear tires @ 28" unless I find some wider ones that are about the same heighth. I want a dependable, streetable car that runs well on 91 octane max. It will never be run on the strip, but I want it to have some get up and go. I like a lumpy cam sound, but have a vac. brake booster and headlight doors that will need to operate. What I have is a 69 HP block that I have had cleaned and magnufluxed that will easily clean up with a .030 bore. 906 heads, factory intake, and factory exhaust manifolds. The block and stock HP exhaust manifold are the only 2 things I am set on using for sure. I am open to anything else. What would be the best bang for the buck?

Forgot to add that I have the stock forged crank, rods, and pistons.

 

[tpodwdog]

my 440 has a 440-hemi cam-10:5/1 keith black pistons-holley 850 double pumper-stock HP exhaust manifolds-727 tranny- 906 heads- 3.55:1 rear end sure grip . it dont get great mileage, but it hauls *** and runs like a dream. i wish i could say i built this engine but i didnt. i got the car with it exactly like that.

 

[RustyRatRod]

Use the first style Hemi grind. There was a second one that they pussed out with, but that first one was real good. If that's the one the dog is talkin about, he's right. It's a good one. Lastly, if you insist on running a lumpy cam with vacuum operated accessories, you may end up having to run a vacuum canister.

 

[snakeoil24]

Get your self a 400 block, use the 440 crank and have the mains bored. Run a 451, you can't build a faster more powerful motor other than building a Hemi. A 451 will be wicked fast on the street.

 

[RustyRatRod]

I think I'd turn the crank down before I bored the mains. You already have to turn the counterweights down about 1/4" so it has to go in the crank grinder anyway. 451 is a good engine. Just a 440 in a smaller package. I don't get how the 451 recommendation answers his question, since cam selection will still be critical running vacuum assisted accessories.

 

[lewtot184]

i use kb184 pistons in both my 440's with open chamber heads. i think these pistons are probably the best economical, open chamber, pump gas friendly pistons out there. Icon (kb forged piston) makes another similar piston, but i have no experience with it. i don't like lumpy cams and cast exhaust manifolds. makes the engine lazy and inefficient.

 

[RustyRatRod]

You couldda just said "I don't like exhaust manifolds", that wouldda been good enough. lol I don't think I'll ever use another pair.

 

[hunt2elk]

Are these Hemi grind cams you guys are talking about the purple ones, or something else? I guess the lumpy idle would'nt have to be, especially if I would run into vac. problems or leave power on the table because of the exhaust manifolds. Is 450 - 475 HP an unreasonable expectation?

 

[RustyRatRod]

Yes, I think that is a bit much for a mild 440 without headers. You might be lucky to get 1 HP per cube.

 

[lewtot184]

Are these Hemi grind cams you guys are talking about the purple ones, or something else? I guess the lumpy idle would'nt have to be, especially if I would run into vac. problems or leave power on the table because of the exhaust manifolds. Is 450 - 475 HP an unreasonable expectation?

with cast exhaust manifolds and stock intake manifold, and unmodified heads 450-475 isn't unreasonable, its impossible. shoot for trying to get the factory rated 375hp. these engines were grossly overated by the factory. the truth is; if you can achieve a true net 375hp on pump gas, you'll have a nice running car.

 

[RustyRatRod]

I was trying to be diplomatic. lol

with cast exhaust manifolds and stock intake manifold, and unmodified heads 450-475 isn't unreasonable, its impossible. shoot for trying to get the factory rated 375hp. these engines were grossly overated by the factory. the truth is; if you can achieve a true net 375hp on pump gas, you'll have a nice running car.

 

[lewtot184]

You couldda just said "I don't like exhaust manifolds", that wouldda been good enough. lol I don't think I'll ever use another pair.

i don't dislike manifolds, i just think the majority of people don't understand what it takes to get any power out of them. most people want to mix a lumpy cam with them and i disagree with that. they need a cam with a wide LSA and most cam grinders use tight LSA. long lumpy cams with tight LSA's work better with headers.

 

[RustyRatRod]

Yup and it's also been my experience that split pattern cams work better with manifolds too. I agree 100% on the wide LSA with them as well. But since I run headers, it really doesn't matter. lol

 

[hunt2elk]

I'm not married to the stock intake or heads. By going with Edelbrock or similiar should help alot?

 

[RustyRatRod]

Not with manifolds holding them back, no.

 

[lewtot184]

if i was going to build a pump gas 440 and wanted it to make more power than stock but still have a stock appearance and not spend a lot of money this is something i'd probably do.
i'd use a set kb184 quench dome pistons with a set of open chamber heads. the block would have a smooth (no rough cuts!) clean-up milling on the deck, .010". the crank/rods/pistons-pins all balanced (the kb184 pistons are about 150grms lighter so this is a must). the heads will need about .015 cut off them (smooth cut) to achieve a good quench (this assumes the heads have never been milled). i'd use the summit big cam (it's basically a crane hmv278 with 114LSA and should work fine with stock exhaust manifolds). don't buy the summit lifters, use a better lifter.
i'd have the valves and guides replaced in the heads. i'd use a stock size stainless valve and get the machinist to use something like a 70 degree bowl hog to relieve extra material out the pockets. then i'd hand blend the machining in the pockets and back cut the valves. basically a pocket port with better valves. this should work fine with the factory steel shim head gasket. i'd also use the stock rockers and push rods but up grade the springs and retainers.
next i'd find something like a weiand 8009 or an edelbrock ch4b intake. the stock iron intakes just won't flow any air and its cheaper to replace them than try to modify them. i'd look for big 440avs or an edelbrock 800 carb.
i'd use a 2 1/2' mandrel bent exhaust with 2 1/2" ultra flow mufflers. all this should get close to a real 375 net horsepower and put a 4000lb car in the mid 13's around 103-105mph. should be easy to tune and drive.

 

[Meep-Meep]

I have reiterated this over and over, but my 440 build is a pretty darn good street engine that is cheap to build and is designed to last a long time. I posted in detail what I did in the "show me your 12 sec build" thread. I'm not saying it's the end all be all, but it works very well. The only thing I have that you may not like is a 3" TTI free flowing exhaust and that includes 2" Hooker headers. I will agree that exhaust manifolds will limit you on cam choices, but getting good performance with them is not impossible. Need to be careful with cam selection.

 

[hunt2elk]

I have reiterated this over and over, but my 440 build is a pretty darn good street engine that is cheap to build and is designed to last a long time. I posted in detail what I did in the "show me your 12 sec build" thread. I'm not saying it's the end all be all, but it works very well. The only thing I have that you may not like is a 3" TTI free flowing exhaust and that includes 2" Hooker headers. I will agree that exhaust manifolds will limit you on cam choices, but getting good performance with them is not impossible. Need to be careful with cam selection.

Thanks Meep. I do remember seeing that thread, but didn't read it because at that point a motor was the last thing I was thinking about. What section was it posted in? I do a search and keep getting 'no results found'.

- - - Updated - - -

with cast exhaust manifolds and stock intake manifold, and unmodified heads 450-475 isn't unreasonable, its impossible. shoot for trying to get the factory rated 375hp. these engines were grossly overated by the factory. the truth is; if you can achieve a true net 375hp on pump gas, you'll have a nice running car.

I guess I didn't realize the factory hp was overrated. A guy always reads that the Hemi was underrated and I just assumed that the 383, 440, and 340's of that era were also.

 

[tallhair]

Thanks Meep. I do remember seeing that thread, but didn't read it because at that point a motor was the last thing I was thinking about. What section was it posted in? I do a search and keep getting 'no results found'.

I guess I didn't realize the factory hp was overrated. A guy always reads that the Hemi was underrated and I just assumed that the 383, 440, and 340's of that era were also.

it's here: http://www.forbbodiesonly.com/mopar...5-Post-your-12-second-combos&highlight=12+sec

Meep's was the first to post / is #2

 

[RustyRatRod]

I like lew's quench motor idea. You should get Don Dulmage's book "Old Reliable: The Practical 440 Race Motor". I was lucky enough that a very generous member here sent me an extra copy he had, but it is still available on C/D. Although he discusses a race engine, a lot of what he talks about can be used on the street. Meepamous is also right. Building for reliability. To me, that means using old school techniques such as slow acting camshafts and low to moderate spring pressures. Those type things lend well to a long lasting but FUN engine. If you try and squeeze every bit of HP and TQ out of a given combination, you'll be using the latest greatest fastest rates of lift. Not always a good thing for stone solid reliability and durability. Not to mention even hydraulics with the fast rate of lift tend to be noisey. Plus, by using old school technology, you are using tech that has been PROVEN time and time again and WON race after race decade after decade.