440 roller cam conversion questions?????

[68gtx]

thinking about going roller in my new build, have never done the conversion before, what is all involved? obviously cam and roller lifters,. can you use say a crower cam and comp lifters ? or erson cam and comp lifters? if a cam is made for solid rollers can you put hydraulic lifters on it?also is there any special block machining required to a stock block? will it need a cam thrust plate like a smallblock uses? if so how is that done?


thanks in advance!!!!

 

[snakeoil24]

1. Oiling is an issue with Roller lifters. Make sure you buy lifters that have proper oiling for needle bearings. Crane Makes a roller that is designed to work with traditional blocks and does not require the block to be bushed for solid Mechanical Rollers. Hydraulic rollers are much longer and need block grinding on some stock castings. When I did my latest Hemi I used a comp Cam with their Solid Rollers that had pressure feed for the needles. I would match Rollers to Cam company if you have issues. Some people ill argue with me but I think Crane or Comp are your two top dogs. Also I used Push rods with oiling thru Push rods for extra top end oiling. I do not know if you can use Solid Roller cams with Hydraulic Roller lifters. But I know traditional blocks do need to have the lifter bores bushed with some rollers. I used an after market block and did not have to do this..

 

[Grabinov911]

I just did this:

Edelbrock Performer RPM Heads 84CC w/ valve spring work for Hydraulic Roller cam
Comp Cams Valve spring locks and retainers
Crower Hydraulic Roller-matched valve springs
Crower Custom Hydraulic Roller cam (236/236@50; 582/582 lift; LSA 110)
Comp Cams Pro Magnum 1.5/1 Roller Rockers

I wasn't there the day my engine guy put in the nylon thrust bushing at the front end of the cam to get the end-play right, but he mentioned that it was not fun! Something about "You'd kill me if I charged you for half the hours I spent on that damn thing."

Seems to be working so far. We did not do any block machining but the lifters DO have the special little oiling holes that 68GTX mentions. And I'm running high volume oil pump.

 

[Tempest 455]

Also, generally to run a solid roller you will need to machine the spring seat for a larger dia spring, longer valves for more installed height, new pushrods for correct length etc.

 

[lewtot184]

Also, generally to run a solid roller you will need to machine the spring seat for a larger dia spring, longer valves for more installed height, new pushrods for correct length etc.

the 440 won't need longer valves, unless it's a raised port head like indy's. iron heads will need a spring seat cut for dual springs not wider springs. alum heads will already be cut for dual springs. thrust button is a must and must be fitted, trail and error. a solid nylon button is the best way to go. none of the cam grinders make tappets. the basic comp cams rollers aren't real good, in my opinion, as compared to some others. really do your research here and don't go cheap. morels used to be real good, isky red-zone, maybe some others. i don't think there is a good hydraulic roller tappet manufactured yet. using a solid roller may save some headaches down the road.

 

[Cranky]

A custom grind is the only way to go for your combination and the whole car is part of the equation and the little bit of extra cost for a custom is worth the money.

 

[68 HEMI GTS]

the majority of the lifters will drop in with no issues in an un-bushed block. you have to watch out for lifters that have an oil band that could extend past the lifter bore at max lift. if starting from scratch i would pony up and buy the isky red zones with the bushings. anything else and they require maintenance. the comp 829's work well, but they wear out on the street. if you run alot of spring pressure they wear out even faster. mine are usually only good in my hemi for around two summers before needing rebuilt. but i have 250# on the seat and 650# the nose. i ran some in a 440 with only around 150# on the seat and they did live longer. crane lifters can not be rebuilt. at least thats what i was told last time i talked to them. they do not offer that service. you cannot run a hyd roller on a solid roller cam. you can run a solid roller on a hyd roller cam but you run the lash tight, around .006 hot. there is no reason to do anything like that if starting from scratch. word of warning, the hyd rollers don't pull big rpm in the BBM, they starting causing valve train instability in the 5800 to 6000 range pretty commonly. if any one says different ask to see a dyno sheet of one making power over 6grand. i've yet to see it. i experimented in my own 440 with a hyd roller, i was a little disappointed. you need a cam button with any roller cam, i also started beefing up the front of my timing covers where the button rides. help keep things where they should be.

 

[68gtx]

if I do go roller I am leaning towards the solid roller , but possibly a crower cam, , but it looks like crower only makes solid roller cams, and they are $900.00 for the lifter kit,but I see they make hyd roller lifters but the cams list as solid rollers, this is the crower info Chrysler/Dodge/Mopar - 350, 361, 383, 400, 413, 426 & 440B
Performance level 4 - Street Roller - Excellent street/strip profile.
INT/EXH - Dur @ .050” Lift: 236°/246° RR: 1.5/1.5 Gross Lift: .550”/.548” LSA: 110° RPM: 2500 to 6000 Redline: 6500

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I haven't talked to any cam recommendations yet, an am thinking this might be too mild but I might be wrong. for the 512 ,

 

[lewtot184]

the majority of the lifters will drop in with no issues in an un-bushed block. you have to watch out for lifters that have an oil band that could extend past the lifter bore at max lift. if starting from scratch i would pony up and buy the isky red zones with the bushings. anything else and they require maintenance. the comp 829's work well, but they wear out on the street. if you run alot of spring pressure they wear out even faster. mine are usually only good in my hemi for around two summers before needing rebuilt. but i have 250# on the seat and 650# the nose. i ran some in a 440 with only around 150# on the seat and they did live longer. crane lifters can not be rebuilt. at least thats what i was told last time i talked to them. they do not offer that service. you cannot run a hyd roller on a solid roller cam. you can run a solid roller on a hyd roller cam but you run the lash tight, around .006 hot. there is no reason to do anything like that if starting from scratch. word of warning, the hyd rollers don't pull big rpm in the BBM, they starting causing valve train instability in the 5800 to 6000 range pretty commonly. if any one says different ask to see a dyno sheet of one making power over 6grand. i've yet to see it. i experimented in my own 440 with a hyd roller, i was a little disappointed. you need a cam button with any roller cam, i also started beefing up the front of my timing covers where the button rides. help keep things where they should be.

this is good info. it directly relates to the inherent instability of a hydraulic tappet. the instability of the hydraulic tappet is magnified when rapidly accelerated by a roller lobe profile.

 

[Cranky]

68 Hemi, what do you do to your timing covers to beef them up? I ran an Isky 660 lift roller back in the 80's and the cover was stock but chromed and it did good but I've seen some covers looking pretty bad after a season....

 

[68 HEMI GTS]

68 Hemi, what do you do to your timing covers to beef them up? I ran an Isky 660 lift roller back in the 80's and the cover was stock but chromed and it did good but I've seen some covers looking pretty bad after a season....

last one i welded a piece of 1/8 plate to the front, really seemed to stiffen up the cover when i set the cam end play and didn't interfere with the water pump housing. ive ran them with nothing done too. seems to depend on how the cam tunnel is machined in the block, my hemi the cam wants to walk right out the front when you spin it over.

 

[Cranky]

Thanks...it's more pronounce in the last pic than in the others but now I can see it in the others too.

 

[451Mopar]

I have both solid roller and hydraulic roller big blocks. Installing the cam and lifters were no problems with clearancing, but it's best to check before assembling the engine. All the roller cammed engines have standard tappet bores (no bushings.) The solid roller engine used the Comp Cams lifters, and the hydraulic roller uses the lower priced Hughes Engines lifters. Roller cams use the three bolt cam timing gear setup so a thrust button can be installed in the center. I have used the aluminum and roller type cam buttons. The aluminum one showed some wear on the front cover after 10,000 miles, but it was not too bad. I don't have many miles on the roller thrust button, but I think the cover amplifies the rollersound because it sounds louder than the solid thrust button. The nylon type may be best for low noise and wear? Most likely you will need custom length pushrods. My 512 stroker (really just 505" with 0.030" overbore) is a mild street engine, about 10.3:1 compression with mildly ported Stealth heads (17cc dish pistons.), and Edelbrock XT EFI. The cam I am using is a mild Comp Cams XR286HR10 236/242 duration @ 0.050", and I'm using 1.6:1 rockers for a bit more lift 0.581"/0.578". I originally used some cheap bushed stainless CAT 1.7:1 rockers, but after about 500 miles they showed alot of heat on the rockershafts, and some of the pushrod ends. I replaced them with 1.6:1 Harlan Sharpe rockers. Because of the additional lift when using the 1.7:1 rockers, I used ISKY 8005A valve springs with the Comp 748-16 retainers. For this size engine, the cam is pretty small, but I figured it would be easier when tuning the EFI. I was only shooting for about 550 HP anyway.
My old 451 Stroker used a Ultradyne Street Roller (solid roller) 251/251 @ 0.050", 0.613"/0.613" lift and I ran that for 10 years with no problems with the Comp solid roller lifters, but the spring pressures were fairly mild, I think only about 160 on the seat, and maybe 400 open?
My 500" stroked 400 block uses a custom solid roller cam, 0.714" lift with 275 seat pressure and around 700 open pressure, and I am using the Comp solid roller lifter in it also, but I only have about 200 street miles and around 50 1/4-mile passes on the engine so far, but so far the lifters seem to be holding up fine.

 

[67 B-body]

Quote from 68 Hemi GTS: "word of warning, the hyd rollers don't pull big rpm in the BBM, they starting causing valve train instability in the 5800 to 6000 range pretty commonly."
He is absolutely correct! As a matter of fact, they typically fall off even sooner,,,, 5200 to 5300 rpm.........
I think unless you're building a mild street engine with lower lift levels, typical of a standard hyd flat tappet setup, you had better go solid roller.

 

[Cranky]

Quote from 68 Hemi GTS: "word of warning, the hyd rollers don't pull big rpm in the BBM, they starting causing valve train instability in the 5800 to 6000 range pretty commonly."
He is absolutely correct! As a matter of fact, they typically fall off even sooner,,,, 5200 to 5300 rpm.........
I think unless you're building a mild street engine with lower lift levels, typical of a standard hyd flat tappet setup, you had better go solid roller.

Heck, I take my POS V6 Dakota to 5500 all the time.....but does it fall off? Well, does it ever produce much power at all? It doesn't fall off because it's never on!

 

[67 B-body]

Heck, I take my POS V6 Dakota to 5500 all the time.....but does it fall off? Well, does it ever produce much power at all? It doesn't fall off because it's never on!

That's exactly why the Hyd Roller arrangements are great for low "stock" to Mid performance applications.... They have the benefits of reduced mechanical friction, and should last longer..... Once we get to the fast ramp speeds of high lift short duration performance camshafts, the hyd lifter gives up the goat and causes unstable valve train performance.

 

[Grabinov911]

if I do go roller I am leaning towards the solid roller , but possibly a crower cam, , but it looks like crower only makes solid roller cams, and they are $900.00 for the lifter kit,but I see they make hyd roller lifters but the cams list as solid rollers, this is the crower info Chrysler/Dodge/Mopar - 350, 361, 383, 400, 413, 426 & 440B
Performance level 4 - Street Roller - Excellent street/strip profile.
INT/EXH - Dur @ .050” Lift: 236°/246° RR: 1.5/1.5 Gross Lift: .550”/.548” LSA: 110° RPM: 2500 to 6000 Redline: 6500

- - - Updated - - -

I haven't talked to any cam recommendations yet, an am thinking this might be too mild but I might be wrong. for the 512 ,

Hey 68GTX here are the specs for my custom Crower Hyd. roller. They WILL make them, they just don't list on the website. Sorry for the bad pic. The cam seems pretty "lopey" to me - the car shakes a little at a stop light - but it's by no means crazy. It starts right up (I have no choke) and runs great right from idle...

- - - Updated - - -

Quote from 68 Hemi GTS: "word of warning, the hyd rollers don't pull big rpm in the BBM, they starting causing valve train instability in the 5800 to 6000 range pretty commonly."
He is absolutely correct! As a matter of fact, they typically fall off even sooner,,,, 5200 to 5300 rpm.........
I think unless you're building a mild street engine with lower lift levels, typical of a standard hyd flat tappet setup, you had better go solid roller.

SO: It's the Hydraulic part, not the Roller part that is the problem correct? But my original STOCK 383 (no longer in the car) is a hydraulic lifter motor isn't it? And the factory sets the redline at 5500 RPM. Right?

Not being a smart ***. I ask because I'd like to know where to set the rev limiter on my new motor, which is a 493 stroker with the hydraulic roller cam shown above. Thoughts?

 

[67 B-body]

The STOCK hyd camshaft doesn't carry anywhere near the ramp speeds and lift that some people are getting from roller camshaft grinds. The LIFTER fails when the needed high spring pressures are placed upon them at high RPMs..... That's the difference.
They hyd cup gives up it's ability to open the valve and the power falls off before the camshafts designed profile would typically allow.

 

[bigblock]

One of the engineers on this board should design a SOHC for our BB's. Then we could tach em to the moon.

 

[68 HEMI GTS]

SO: It's the Hydraulic part, not the Roller part that is the problem correct? But my original STOCK 383 (no longer in the car) is a hydraulic lifter motor isn't it? And the factory sets the redline at 5500 RPM. Right?

Not being a smart ***. I ask because I'd like to know where to set the rev limiter on my new motor, which is a 493 stroker with the hydraulic roller cam shown above. Thoughts?

it'll let you know, it will just hit a spot where you can tell it is just done pulling. alot of other things are also going to determine were you set the rev limiter so that kind of a vague question and answer. im sure if you run it up to 6500 you'll get an idea where your gonna want to shift at.

not all engine platforms suffer from hyd roller issues. they work well in SBlocks. i've build several small fords that went 7 grand with a properly set up hyd roller. LS engines, small chevys, etc all run real well with hyd rollers. the BB mopars just carry so much weight in the valves, valve gear, on top of really heavy lifters. then added rocker ratio such as 1.6 or 1.7 seems to aggravate them even further.

and honestly IMO a well set up Flat tappet hyd cam will probably run better in a BB mopar than the hyd roller. it will defiantly pull more RPM.

you can't compare HYD rollers to solid rollers on a BB mopar, two different animals. solid roller is the only way to go if your going for max power. a good solid flat tappet will also make power, just keeping the lobes on is another story.