440 Starts fine cold, need gas can to start if stalled

[YY1]

Not really sure where to put this...

The 69 440 in my truck had a TQ on it and ran, but backfired and wouldn't stay running.

I finally figured out it was leaking gas internally, and swapped it out with an eddy AFB 600.

After adjustments it's doing MUCH better, and is street drivable now, however...

The electric choke works correctly, and it starts fine cold, or if you shut it off normally.

If I stall it (it's a manual trans) or let it die while tuning, it won''t restart unless I pour about 1/4 cup of gas in the carb. I've tried pumping the pedal, but that doesn't seem to do anything.

I've checked for vacuum leaks (and so has my brother), and can't find any.

The motor seems to have a cam (I intend to pull a valve cover and measure lift), and I'm sure the 600 is too small, but it seems to run OK enough to drive.

I've got it to idle at about 1150 warm (I'd be happier with less), and it carries about 12-14 inches of vacuum.

The timing is "below the marks" advanced- I'm guessing about 14-16* initial, and it doesn't ping or diesel, or exhibit timing related hard starting.

Additional info- electric fuel pump, and it seems to want a rich idle mixture- about 3 3/4 turns out.
If I Turn the screws all the way in, it dies (it stayed running with the TQ).

I sprayed carb cleaner all around the base gasket, the sides of the carb, all the blocked off nipples, the intake to head gasket, and as far as I could get under the intake. No effect.

It's actually surprisingly easy to drive, considering what it is- a full size truck with a cammed 440 and a linkage clutch manual trans all with questionable installation and maintenance.

Any ideas why it's starved for gas on a stall induced restart?

 

[SPEEDYRT1]

hey u said electric fuel pump / did u install a fuel pressure regulator [adjustable ] with a gauge , if not u better install one , elect fuel pumps push way more pressure @ fuel ,than the factory pump 4 - 7 psi max is all u need for stock motor

 

[YY1]

You would think that would cause too much fuel, and maybe flooding, not starvation, eh?

 

[Moparsr2fast]

A regulator may help, but IMHO, it is a timing issue. You wil need an advance light to properly set timing on an engine with an aftermarket cam. You could take a marker, and mark the dizzy housing against the block for a reference, and try going cllockwise some. tighten it down and test. as long as you have your reference point, you can play with the timing some that way until you have a proper light.

 

[YY1]

Don't know about you, but I can kinda tell when there's a timing issue affecting the startup.
It sounds different.

Why would that ONLY affect starts after a stall out, and not a cold start or hot start after a key-off event?
( I HAVE had cars that had too much timing affect hot starts only, but this is ONLY after a stall. Normal hot starts are fine)

...and I did set the timing by ear, idle speed and max vacuum while using a light.
That's where I got the estimated number, since the "sweet spot" was off the scale (that only goes to 10* BTDC).

On an automatic car, I usually advance until pinging under load occurs, then back off until it quits.
Can't do that with a manual trans.

My neighbor (chevy mechanic) suggested it might be draining the fuel bowls when it stalls.
You'd think the elect pump would fill them back up after a few seconds of the key being on, though.

You'd also think that would indicate a needle/seat issue and would manifest it's self as drive-ability and/or general starting issues, and again, not JUST restart after stall.

Keep the suggestions coming, please, though.

 

[furyus]

Try making it stall again and check to see if you have fuel when you work the carb lever by hand. Should see it come out the shooters. If not you need to find out why the pump isn't filling the carb. Also set mixture screws to highest rpm/ vacuum after setting timing. Should die when you turn them all the way in.

 

[YY1]

Try making it stall again and check to see if you have fuel when you work the carb lever by hand. Should see it come out the shooters.

That's my next step. Why would that be different on stall versus key-off?

Also set mixture screws to highest rpm/ vacuum after setting timing. Should die when you turn them all the way in.

Yep, it does. That was the big improvement of the AFB over the TQ

 

[Coyoteduster]

What position is the choke in when it wont restart?

 

[YY1]

Choke works properly. It disengages (opens) when the engine is hot.

I tried forcing it shut or partially shut to no avail.

This is a fairly petty issue, but it's maddening, and inconvenient as hell!

 

[Moparsr2fast]

Not enough spark advance, or you have the distributor gear in 1 tooth off...

 

[67 B-body]

Not enough spark advance, or you have the distributor gear in 1 tooth off...

Impossible to have a dist gear one tooth off "unless the advance can is preventing you from moving the dist, or your cables are REALLY short".
The factory points it in one direction, but not because it has to be to run...

 

[Moparsr2fast]

I have seen it done, and the car running...but just barely. It would take 5 minutes to check, why not eliminate all possibilities ? Otherwise, check float level, or maybe the fuel pump is very weak..

 

[67 B-body]

I have seen it done, and the car running...but just barely. It would take 5 minutes to check, why not eliminate all possibilities ? Otherwise, check float level, or maybe the fuel pump is very weak..

Sorry NO WAY!
That dist can rotate 360 deg as long as nothing mechanically interferes with its path. Spending time on the impossible is time wasted in my book...

 

[Moparsr2fast]

I have been playing with these cars for over 35 years. My apologies for offering things to look at besides the carb. I see you are critical of my suggestions, but have yet to offer an alternative possibility..
Good luck YY1. Please post the solution when you have found it.

 

[67 B-body]

Many "possible" causes,,, but a tooth off is not one of them.... Sorry,,, it's not "YOUR" suggestions directly that cause me to suggest YY1 not spend time on it.... It's simply not going to yield him any solution to spend time on it....
I ask this to YY1..... What's the cranking PSI when "Hot"? What's the vacuum reading look like while cranking "Hot"? Is this a hyd or mechanical lifter engine and does it have adj rocker arms? These are in addition to the already asked question, "does fuel come out of the squirters after this stall condition while pressing the throttle arm"....

 

[YY1]

I haven't done compression yet.

It's on my short list.

I did hook up the power brake booster yesterday, and took it for a spin around the neighborhood.

All was well, and it started and ran fine.

Only lost about 1 inch of vac with the booster hooked up.

Did not stall, and didn't feel like messing with it.

Thanks for all the suggestions.

I'm hoping someone comes up with something logical, or that I haven't thought of.

Sorry if I seem quick to dismiss, but it's probably because I'm seeking a clarification of the logic, or it's something I've already tried.

 

[SlinktRR]

Not really sure where to put this...

The 69 440 in my truck had a TQ on it and ran, but backfired and wouldn't stay running.

I finally figured out it was leaking gas internally, and swapped it out with an eddy AFB 600.

Would strongly suspect a carb issue. I had a similar problem with an edelbrock 650 avs. Great carburetors, easy to tune, awesome gas mileage and throttle response..but they are very sensitive to float level. Check the float height, should be exactly 7/16". And like others have suggested it would be good to have a pressure regulator in-line.

Good luck!

 

[67 coronet]

if you can start it by pouring gas into the carb,then it is a carb fuel delivery problem.like others have said,does it squirt fuel from the squirters when you actuate the throttle when it wont start?
a quick way to check the vacuum leak is to choke the carb with your hand while running.car should stall out when air horn is covered up.
to solve the earlyer dist gear argument.timming is a measure of rotor to cap indexing.you could point the rotor in any direction as long as it starts near #1 plug wire at top dead center.1 tooth does not matter.

 

[SlinktRR]

Another thing that happens with the edelbrock carbs is the fuel can boil out of the bowls. I ended up using a phenolic spacer, which helps. You could try a 1" spacer. My next mod is to insulate the fuel line from heat, got the idea from the international scout forum. You might find some things to try there:

http://www.binderplanet.com/forums/showthread.php?t=95725&highlight=Cured+edelbrock+fuel+boil

 

[Moparsr2fast]

The reason I suggested timing is 1) the truck initially wouldn't run , and backfired with the TQ. 2) after switching carbs, it ran, but acted like it has a cam..ie somewhat rough idle, and won't stay running with idle less then 1150. ( unless I misinterpreted ), and 3) a 14 to 16 degree inital timing is retarded more then it should be, although I realize this was speculative.
As for the dizzy gear being a tooth off, yes, the vehicle will run, but the dizzy is physically limited in movement to get a correct amount of rotation. This was just something to take into consideration, not a singularily focused solution.