650 HP and 720 ft lbs Torque...6bbl ! 512 Stroker 11.5 CR

[biomedtechguy]

I have an article from 2016 in Mopar Action magazine (thanks to a forum member who was "housecleaning")
The cover car is a 74 'Cuda, originally equipped with a 360.
That was replaced with a 512 stroker RB motor built by David Vaseleniuck (RIP).
I spoke with a member of the "team" who not only informed me that David V. had passed away, but the guy I spoke with was involved with/familiar with the build.
This is the part that really, REALLY excited me and led to my calling them: 650 horsepower and 720 ft lbs of torque-topped off with what MUST top off my future build on my real V-code 70 Roadrunner, a 6 bbl !
Now I've seen some great 6bbl stroker builds by Jim LaRoy, but I've never seen one with those strong numbers of both HP and TQ. My conversations with builders and others about my goals were always along the lines of "as close to 600 horsepower as possible, but well into the mid to upper 6XX range for torque". Well this particular engine in this article is beyond what I was thinking could be done, yet there it is. The only details I can get from the article are 512 "full roller" (I'm not 100% sure what that means, but I guess roller cam/lifters, rockers, timing chain?) 11.5:1 CR Eagle internals, six pack intake. There is a 200 HP shot nitrous system on it but the owner said he has never used it because the output of the engine is "scary" as is. (much less adding another 200 HP kick) My concern about hitting the button at that level of power would be breaking a great motor (there's no indication that the block is anything other than Chrysler factory)
So the guy I spoke with is named Bill Ross, and all I can say is I hope they can get as close as possible to duplicating those output numbers for me. Their location in North Carolina is close enough to south Louisiana where if they were OK with it, I would drive up the last couple of days of the build so I could check out the final assembly and dyno work, and drive that sweet mill home!
I would need surgery to get the GRIN off my face!
Anyone know Bill Ross or David Vaseleniuck or any of their Mopar engine work? (they do other brands as well)
The car's owner's name is Bryon Webber and the car is a 74 ' Cuda. A pic in the article shows a "Power Tour 2014" sticker across the top of the windshield, so I'm taking from that and other parts of the story that this is a very reliable ride as well.
If I go this route, I will certainly follow up.
Thanks in advance for any info if any of you know this car or this shop or their work.

 

[VANDAN]

Be very careful of what you read, and believe. If that's the car I know, be weary of who's getting the build credit...

 

[1967coronet440]

Going to be hard to duplicate with no specs to go off of. But those numbers aren’t really unrealistic, actually they should be fairly easy to attain.

 

[biomedtechguy]

If that's the car I know

Here's a couple of pictures

 

[biomedtechguy]

those numbers aren’t really unrealistic, actually they should be fairly easy to attain.

Easy, maybe. Doable, from what I've seen, yes, but at the leading edge of what I've seen done, which is where I'd like to be!

Going to be hard to duplicate with no specs to go off of.

I'm hoping the guy I spoke with has the build data.

 

[1967coronet440]

Easy, maybe. Doable, from what I've seen, yes, but at the leading edge of what I've seen done, which is where I'd like to be!

I'm hoping the guy I spoke with has the build data.

That would be nice, I’m guessing they used -1’s or something similar for heads. I’d go with a set of trick flow 270’s and call a guy like @PRHeads for the roller cam, tell him what you’re wanting and you’ll get there.

 

[68 HEMI GTS]

Dyno numbers are more of a guide. You put one engine on 10 different dynos you’ll likely get 10 different numbers that vary widely.

 

[biomedtechguy]

I’d go with a set of trick flow 270’s

I appreciate the advice, and those are great heads, but with the Chrysler/Edelbrock 6bbl intake, I think the TF 240s are a better match. They would keep both the horsepower and torque peaks in at a lower RPM, and possibly lend to a wider, flatter torque curve. Mainly the 240s better match the dual plane intake.
Every time I talk about my future stroker motor, I think I always mention that it absolutely MUST be topped with the Chrysler/Edelbrock intake. I don't mind getting Wilson Manifolds to work whatever magic they can with it. The only other intake I would consider (although the Weiand 3x2 is really cool, they need so much tweaking to make them work properly) the only one I'd consider is the ModMan with a 3x2 top plate, but the setup has to work with a N96 hood scoop setup, which I don't have any problems with the air box, etc being modified to fit.
In my opinion, the AirGrabber/Ramcharger vacuum operated door style scoop is THE best fresh air setup of the entire muscle car era.
Having said all that, if they say "this" is how we got those numbers, and I know already they used the Chrysler/Edelbrock intake and Holley carbs, I would ultimately defer to whatever it took for them to get there, although I don't see how TF 240s would hurt.

 

[cryplydog]

I think the 11-1/2 C.R. may easily be the reason for the 650 HP. on that build.

 

[biomedtechguy]

I think the 11-1/2 C.R. may easily be the reason for the 650 HP. on that build.

Sounds like that too would fall into a parameter that I've "thrown around" too when discussing specs. An ability to get the most power using a blend of pump premium and race fuel, but still not detonate on 93 octane pump gas. Now you "pros" bare with me...it may well be that a particular cam profile and aluminum heads at a CR of 11.5:1 may not ever really have a detonation issue on 93 octane (or it really could be a problem), but what I have suggested is the ability to "turn up" the motor (in this case timing advance) to get a "noticeable" amount of additional power (7-10%) when running race fuel or a blend, then "turn it down" for street use w/straight 92 or 93 octane.
Look, a lot of this is fact and opinion gathering since I can't yet afford the build, to try to make the right choices, and some of it is to keep my enthusiasm up to go out and work to get the money to make it happen.

 

[rumblefish360]

I’d like to know the combo for sure.

 

[Hemirunner]

Dyno numbers are more of a guide. You put one engine on 10 different dynos you’ll likely get 10 different numbers that vary widely.

Absolutely true. I would be curious as to what cam was used. We did a similar build using RPM heads and an XR292HR-10 cam in it. It was 625hp/685tq and was a great running engine. Backed by a 4spd and a 4.10 dana, it was nuts on the street.

 

[PurpleBeeper]

Sounds like that too would fall into a parameter that I've "thrown around" too when discussing specs. An ability to get the most power using a blend of pump premium and race fuel, but still not detonate on 93 octane pump gas. Now you "pros" bare with me...it may well be that a particular cam profile and aluminum heads at a CR of 11.5:1 may not ever really have a detonation issue on 93 octane (or it really could be a problem), but what I have suggested is the ability to "turn up" the motor (in this case timing advance) to get a "noticeable" amount of additional power (7-10%) when running race fuel or a blend, then "turn it down" for street use w/straight 92 or 93 octane.
Look, a lot of this is fact and opinion gathering since I can't yet afford the build, to try to make the right choices, and some of it is to keep my enthusiasm up to go out and work to get the money to make it happen.

Well, that 11.5 static compression ratio is REALLY on the ragged edge of what you can get away with using 93 octane fuel, even with aluminum heads. Also, you can't buy 93-octane fuel everywhere. Some places I can't find higher than 91-octane (at regular gas stations anyway).

Now, your timing retard idea is interesting. MSD (and I'm sure others) have electronic timing retards available (I just put one on my car). Some of these retards even have a in-car dial you can turn to electronically adjust the timing. It may take some experimentation, but "maybe" you could tune the car on 93-octane, then determine how much timing you have to pull out (electronically) to run on 91-octane? Side note--> I remember a buddy of mine had a mid-80's turbocharged SVO Mustang 4 cylinder. There was a switch by the shifter that would do something similar to what I described & "turn up" the motor when running premium fuel.

Also, I believe you are correct that you can only run the factory-style intake with N96. I've added a 1" nitrous plate(s) and I had to modify the trap door for clearance...it's tight in there.

 

[biomedtechguy]

Thanks PurpleBeeper.
I have a NX 2bbl plate. I think we've talked about that. I got the plate for fitment checks.

We did a similar build using RPM heads and an XR292HR-10 cam in it. It was 625hp/685tq and was a great running engine. Backed by a 4spd and a 4.10 dana, it was nuts on the street.

Did that build use the Chrysler/Edelbrock 6bbl intake or? Those numbers would make me happy too!
Backed by my Passon 5 speed and a 4.10 Dana....SURGERY to remove the perma-grin would be needed to go to solemn occasions.

 

[PRHeads]

Dyno numbers are more of a guide. You put one engine on 10 different dynos you’ll likely get 10 different numbers that vary widely.

And sometimes they’re just in lala land.

No telling in this situation with no build data, but I’d say the best chance you have of duplicating that build and power level is to have it built by who built the original....... and have it tested at the same facility.

 

[Hemirunner]

Thanks PurpleBeeper.
I have a NX 2bbl plate. I think we've talked about that. I got the plate for fitment checks.

Did that build use the Chrysler/Edelbrock 6bbl intake or? Those numbers would make me happy too!
Backed by my Passon 5 speed and a 4.10 Dana....SURGERY to remove the perma-grin would be needed to go to solemn occasions.

It used a reproduction mopar performance six pack carb setup and the Chrysler/Edelbrock aluminum intake.

 

[BSB67]

And sometimes they’re just in lala land.

Thanks for saying it.

Listen guys, building motors is not rocket science. No offence to anyone. There is no special secret bullet that only one guy has figured out to make our naturally aspirated street motors idle and drive like it's nearly stock, and make 800 hp at 7000 rpm. If two guys are using the same parts and assy specs, then the motors will make the same power, no matter what two different dynos say. Conversely, if one motor does actually make 70 more hp than the other guy's, it's because it either has a bigger cam, more compression, or better heads, or a combination of all three. The 70 extra hp and these three items are a compromise with cost, idle quality, cruise, gearing, fuel type, durability and longevity.

Therefore it is incumbent on you (the customer) to make very very clear your goals for the motor, car, and its combined operating and maintenance characteristics. And if you do a really really good job of doing that, and the engine builder does a really really good job of receiving your message, then the horse power will be what it will be, and it will be about the same from either guy that builds your motor.

 

[PRHeads]

When it comes to dyno numbers I like to think I have somewhat of a “never say never” attitude.
That being said, I’ve dynoed a few motors over the years where I was pleasantly surprised that it made a bit more than anticipated......... but in 29 years of dyno testing I can’t think of a single one, no matter who built it, that was “shockingly” good, or one that made way more power than the sum of its parts would indicate.

While I still “never say never”....... the only numbers I have any real faith in....... are the ones that have come from my own testing.

On the other hand.....I’ve tested quite a few motors from underperforming cars, where the owners had dyno sheets from the builders in their hands........ that made quite a bit less power when I tested them.
And often times, with the numbers I was seeing........ the car was actually going as fast as it “should”.

I’m not talking like 10-20hp either.
Previous dyno: 812hp, my test: 725hp
Previous dyno: 840hp, my test: 770hp
Previous dyno: 615hp, my test: 550hp(with their tune up, then 590hp after a bunch of carb tuning).

I’m not saying the one here is “right” and others are “wrong”, but it’s important to recognize that there can be significant differences in what the numbers on the sheet are, depending on where it was tested.

 

[biomedtechguy]

Everything that you experienced folks are saying, I can't disagree with.
It is a torturous process for me to choose a builder. When I finally settled on one, I was crushed to find that he is no longer available. I really like my local builder, who did the 421 Pontiac, and who works on an alcohol burning Gen 2 Hemi, and has done a number of RB Mopar engines. He would let me come by his shop, teach or at least inform me about different choices and their relative effects, and a lot of other positive things. BUT he doesn't have a dyno, he can't really tune a 6bbl, doesn't have a cylinder head flow bench, so basically there would be loose ends.

 

[BSB67]

I really like my local builder, who did the 421 Pontiac, and who works on an alcohol burning Gen 2 Hemi, and has done a number of RB Mopar engines. He would let me come by his shop, teach or at least inform me about different choices and their relative effects, and a lot of other positive things. BUT he doesn't have a dyno, he can't really tune a 6bbl, doesn't have a cylinder head flow bench, so basically there would be loose ends.

Your words here are very conflicting, IMO