'68 Satellite 4-door light refurb...and big fat engine swap.

[cudak888]

'68 Satellite Refurb and Roller-Cam 360 Swap

The car:

The story:
I picked up this '68 Satellite locally not long ago. Those of you who surf copcardotcom.fotki.com might have seen the PO's photos of it. It's a reasonable (more or less piss-poor) clone of an unmarked City of Miami '68 Belvedere, coupled up with some equally "reasonable" bodywork. However, it's a solid car and very passable as-is, so I intend(ed) to enjoy it more or less as you see it.

More photos @ Flickr: https://www.flickr.com/photos/43240189@N03/sets/72157651769233370

I've already posted a few threads about what I've done to it, for those interested in previous progress:

Door hinge adjustment: http://www.forbbodiesonly.com/mopar...per-door-hinge-adjustment-access-latch-issues
Tailpipes: http://www.forbbodiesonly.com/mopar...ing-J-hanger-exhaust-bracket-good-idea-or-not

Now, that seems all nice and pedestrian - but what seemed to be a simple project of headliner, dash, weatherstripping, and general fix-the-stuff-that-wasn't-fixed-right issues became something bigger when I realized that the PO casually glided over the fact that three cylinders in the original 318 were pushing compression readings ranging from 45 to 22psi.

Grrrr. Bottom end is dead. I paid enough to get a working engine in this thing. Oh well, I should have been more cautious. Broke my own rules. So be it.

I toyed with the idea of going full 440 with it, and threw it out the window when I realized that I'd be replacing every stinking part in the driveline. Nope. Then came the idea of yanking a late-model Magnum 5.2/5.9 and going carbureted. After crunching numbers, I realized it'd be cheaper just to stick with the stock Magnum EFI, and Tanks Inc.'s soon-to-be-available (late August-early September, I'm told) FI-ready fuel tank for the Coronet/Belvedere/Satellite made it all the more attractive.

So was the plan, except I couldn't find a nice donor Magnum 5.2 (let alone 5.9) at a good price locally. Only candidate was a neighbors' 1996 Ram Van for $500, which came to nothing when the owner of it stopped replying to my text messages (despite his initial interest in selling me the rusty POS).

Then, a week ago, I found this 1989 B350 Ram Van (Maxi Van conversion) at the local pick and pull:

Lucky me. I found a TBI roller-cam LA 360. I can see this project heading in a different direction already.

It took me a week before I could get back to the yard, but today (really, yesterday), I went straight to work...ruining a nice old Mopar van!

Luckily, they had no problem with me dragging my spare Optima battery to do a compression test on all cylinders. 130-140psi across the board, and all the spark plugs look like they were firing perfectly. Rockers and the rocker shaft look minty through the oil inspection hole too.

I got this far, and the yard closed an hour early. Exhaust, left engine mount, torque converter, and inspection plate are still in place. With any luck, tomorrow should see this thing free of the van, and on its way home to my engine stand.

More updates and photos to come as things progress.

-Kurt

 

[kiwigtx]

I'm liking the look of the Satellite project so far. Keep it a bit rough'n'ready - adds to the realism. The PO must have spent a small fortune tracking down all those Police goodies - radio, mics and horns etc. Nice car. :headbang:

 

[ralphie361]

Cool car, I'll be watching this! Good to see another sedan getting some love!

 

[cudak888]

I'm liking the look of the Satellite project so far. Keep it a bit rough'n'ready - adds to the realism. The PO must have spent a small fortune tracking down all those Police goodies - radio, mics and horns etc. Nice car. :headbang:

Not sure how much effort really went into tracking this stuff down. The Federal Interceptor is a few years newer than it should be, the GE head unit does not have the corresponding radio unit in the trunk, and the speaker unit under the hood is current production (already pulled it). The model of lights used in the back window go for all of $15-25 on eBay in various colors.

In other news...

I am now the proud owner of a 1989 LA 360...one that's been pissing oil out its front seal for ages, from the looks of it. Flexplate got really smashed up in the process, but I have to replace it with a B&M unit anyway.

And yes, I loaded it in the pouring rain, and I unloaded it in the pouring rain, not to mention the three times I've been rained out of (or on) in the yard.


Got tons of video of the removal too, but I'm going to save it for a combined YouTube video of both the Satellite and my '69 Valiant.


Incidentally - I'm not sure if this was the van's mode of failure or just damage from the forklifts that the yard uses to move cars around, but get a load of the driveshaft:

-Kurt

 

[cudak888]

I couldn't help it.

It just came in the mail from eBay. It looks so darn RIGHT sitting there. One new engine, one new "life."

-Kurt

 

[cudak888]

I removed the TBI parts and wiring harness from the 360 yesterday and threw them on eBay, and this evening, I was able to remove the '75-91-style truck manifolds (which I put up for sale here, if anyone is interested). Still have to pull the intake, though I bet nobody is going to want it.

In even better news, I snagged this on eBay for $150, shipped to my door:

Unfortunately, I was a second too late trying to snag a pair of 1992/3 Magnum exhaust manifolds ( 53006618 and 53006619 ) on the A-Body forum. One of the local pick-and-pulls claims to have a pair of them on Car-Part.com, so I'll take a drive by there sometime.

-Kurt

 

[cudak888]

Moved the engine to my backyard workshop today. NOT FUN, even though it's 42 pounds lighter without the manifolds.

I'll be happier when I have it bolted to my engine stand.

-Kurt

 

[cudak888]

Got the engine off the dolly, on the hoist, and onto the stand this evening:

I also took this opportunity to pull the compressor. I don't care what anyone says - the factory Mopar '88-91 (might apply to earlier '80s LAs too) A/C compressor mount assembly for the Sanden-style unit is one of the worst things I've ever seen engineered. Pulling the compressor pretty much forces you into removing the entire alternator bracket assembly or fighting a pair of 15mm bolts in an area where you can't fit a wrench.

Even if you get the thing out using the latter method (honestly, it's smarter to pull all the front brackets off to take it off, even though it's a much bigger job), you STILL have to pull all the brackets if you want to get the intake manifold off.

In short, if you want the intake off, you might as well take off your fan, alternator, and A/C compressor. Crap!

-Kurt

 

[cudak888]

After one day without power, and two without internet access, I have lots of progress to report:

First off, a closeup of the aforementioned Sanden air compressor brackets:

These photos do not even show the additional bracket which fits to the back of the Sanden, further securing it to the intake. That'd be fine, but the Sanden tabs are threaded, and there isn't enough room to back the bolts out unless you do some not-so-conventional wrenching. Easier to pull the whole bracket set out, but as you can see, doing so also requires dumping the alternator bracket.

There's a word for engineering like this, and it has the word BULL in it. Bouchillon's BPE4725 looks like a good substitute.

This is what the power steering bracket looks like for the '89 B-van (presumably the same on '88 through 91; might apply to older LA engines too; Magnums have an aluminum bracket), and is notably simpler than the nonsense used to mount the Sanden compressor. It has its own set of problems though: The rear bracket bolts right through the two left hand timing chain cover bolts - which are drilled right through into the cooling passages of the engine. If you have to remove it, you'll probably make a mess, whether you drain the system or not. Not ideal.

At any rate, I can't mount the original 1968 P/S bracket if I use the later water pump. The '68 bracket pivots on an extra ear on the water pump (note that the water pump in this photo is also the wrong application for '68 - it's the marine water pump which the aftermarket somehow believes is an HD pump for these engines) which is not present on the later aluminum units. I should note this design is also made to clear the pre-1970 water pumps with a driver's side inlet, and the '89 bracket is an (obvious) impossibility with such a setup.

Basic degreasing ended the evening - sans power or lights. Wound up taking everything off with only a forehead LED light to help. Wasn't that bad - on the stand, that is:

Saturday afternoon - the moment of truth. Off came the valve covers and intake manifold for a clear look into the top end to gauge overall condition.

It doesn't get any better than this, junkyard engine or otherwise.

Here's where it gets a bit interesting: According to my Mopar master-tech neighbor, this should be a heavy-duty 360, a.k.a. the 360-2 or 360-3 - more or less similar to the E58 depending on marketing. The exhaust valves rotators seem to indicate this is indeed one of the heavy duty motors.

Whichever version it is though, very little information directly from a Chrysler manual seems to be available on it, though the internet's armchair dragracers have wasted no time filling Google chock-full of contradictory bull$hit as to what actually constitutes the 360-2 from the 360-3, much less the actual specs of either. Most of the good information out there about the HD 360s seem to relate to the late-'70s carbureted examples, and not the relatively short-lived roller-cam, throttle-body injected engines from '88-91 (which seem to be almost exclusively of interest only to Ramcharger enthusiasts). I have the VIN from the van - 2B6JB31Z0KK375938 - but the existing charts are for pre-ISO standardized VINs.

It does have the exhaust valve rotators associated with the heavy-duty 360s though, so that's a plus. There is also talk of lower compression than an average 360 and different valve sizes for minimizing pinging and maximizing low-end torque adjusted for the era's lean mix requirements, but - again - that's based on carb-era engines that were not built from the factory with 308 heads.

We'll soon find out how far the pistons are in the hole, once the heads come off.

Pulled off the rest of the front accessories. By this point, the engine had been sprayed and scrubbed quite a few times by this point. My Performer 318/360 intake arrived as well, and I'm using it here to keep the valley free of any what-nots flying around the workshop:

Today's work order called for removal of the oil pan for safe (and simple) removal of the timing chain cover and oil sump, plus, I wanted to swap valve covers so I could begin prepping the '68 valve covers for installation. Now, I'd only popped the left valve cover on this engine before, and it was pretty ugly inside - but this was the first time I'd ever opened up the right side. The sludge in this engine is NASTY:

Something tells me that a previous owner of this car believed that oil changes fall under the category of "optional extra." Idiot. Ironically enough, I have more experience with ridiculously abused Mopar small blocks than I have with decent ones, as these two engines were preceded by a '98 Ram Van's 3.9L that was handed down through the family; also the victim of the van's previous owner's attitude to oil changes, long before it ever reached us, though I firmly believe the problem was accelerated by the common intake manifold plenum gasket leak (one of the reasons I was leery of digging up Magnums in the junkyards to begin with). This was at ~125k:

Of course, the Satellite isn't quite as bad...but it's bad. Who knows - maybe the lifter valley will prove to be the real horror show:

At any rate, I'm going to have those valve covers hot tanked. No amount of scrubbing will get the sludge that's behind the baffle. I tried (not shown) and gave up.

But back to the 360. This is the original, factory double-roller timing chain, loose like the t!ts on a goose. The slack surprised me for a moment - seeing as this engine looks to have really low miles on it - but it seems as if this is par for the course on Mopar small blocks. Whatever the case, I ordered another Cloyes factory double-roller to replace it with, along with the Magnum 3.9 tensioner. Here's hoping the Cloyes stock replacement is not a retarded timing set either...because I don't want that. (I also take offense to paying an $100 premium to get the same exact timing chain set with a few extra slots cut in the crankshaft sprocket. If there's one thing I've learned, the not-so-much-different-than-factory performance parts market - especially for Mopar - is a complete and utter ripoff).

This is the truck-style rear sump screen and pickup pipe on the 360 (and presumably the 318 as well). Nothing like the rear sump on the 3.9, I noted. At any rate, I pulled the oil sump, ready for it's Melling center-mounted replacement pickup:

My floor is now a world of parts which may or may not make it back onto this engine:

Next steps will be to replace the timing chain and tensioner before pulling the heads and inspecting the cylinders - and whether they ride too low in relation to the deck or not.

-Kurt

 

[cudak888]

One of the party pieces arrived today in the form of 1992/93 (w/late-1991 date codes) Magnum 5.2/5.9 exhaust manifolds. These are the semi-elusive 53006618 and 53006619 large-flange castings:

Note that the Magnum manifolds take notably longer bolts/studs at the ends than the original LA smog logs. Only seller out there is asking $32 for a set of bolts. Ouch:

Quick mockup for amusement:

Melling 72-S2 center sump arrived. Did not want to thread on nicely, but had no burrs. Just a bit tighter a fit than normal.

The full gasket kit should be here by Wednesday.

-Kurt

 

[cudak888]

Ok, main cap is back in with a proper Fel-Pro lower seal and some Permatex 51813 (Loctite 518).

I got to work on the front of the engine and came up with this quandary - no drilled bolts, but one oil gallery welch plug with a pinhole for oiling, and a matching hole in the cam thrust plate:

Wound up drilling the new tensioner, but I've also been advised to put a drilled bolt on the top right hand side (from driver's perspective) anyway. Is it really necessary, given that the welch plug hole should serve the same purpose?

I thought this was a pretty interesting eye opener. With the factory double roller, this position between cam and crank was straight up. With the tensioner, it's obvious how much slop/slack has been taken up:

And with the chain on was the moment of truth - head removal:

Talk about pistons deep in the hole. Those dished pistons also bring back bad memories of Ford's 400/351M smoggers.

Have I spent all that time buttoning up the bottom end for nothing? Heck, I still don't know what compression this combo is running.

Shame the Magnum 5.9 pistons aren't weighed the same as the LA 360's. Would have been cheaper than KB-107s or H116's.

In the meantime, I'm going to get the heads cleaned up; possibly hot tanked. No sense in re-doing the nice factory valve set since they're sealing perfectly.

-Kurt

 

[cudak888]

Well, this afternoon has been a mission.

First, I pulled out the dial indicator this afternoon. Pistons are down in the bore ~0.088", more or less. Assuming that I use Fel-Pro 1008 head gaskets on the existing setup:

Thus:
4.00x3.58 (bore/stroke)
4.18 (head gasket bore)
0.039 (gasket thickness)
72cc (CC volume)
-10cc (dished)
0.088 (deck clearance)

Gives me a CC of 7.77:1. Blech.

I'd be a lot happier around the 9:1 range.

I recalculated for SpeedPro H116CP pistons:
4.00x3.58 (bore/stroke)
4.18 (head gasket bore)
0.039 (gasket thickness)
72cc (CC volume)
-5cc (dished)
0.027 (deck clearance)

9.07:1. Much better.

And then I realized that even if I could get the pistons similar in weight (SpeedPro H116's), I'd still have to get the rotating assembly rebalanced.

Grrrrrrrrr...

Then, I remembered something: When I pulled the heads off last night, I was too utterly tired to comprehend this discovery - the stock lifters and pushrods are oil-through units, even though LAs are supposed to oil through the head:

Apparently, the modifications that lead to the 1992 Magnum engines trickled in on these roller cam blocks. To be sure, I moved the dial indicator to the edge of one lifter and started checking cam specs:

Lift Duration Installed CL
89-91 360 .391/.391 240/240 ???
5.2 Magnum .432/432 251/264 115
5.9 Magnum .410/.417 249/269 117

Intake cam lift on my 360 at is 0.272 at the lifter. Figuring the 1.5 rocker ratio of the standard LA rockers, that works out to 0.408 lift with the setup now.
Exhaust cam lift is 0.258; at 1.5, that'd be 0.387 lift.

Now if we take those specs and apply them to a 1.6 rocker ratio:

0.272 x 1.6 = .435
0.258 x 1.6 = .412

Doesn't quite match up to anything, but I'm starting to get an idea. But first, a look at the lifters. Apparently, each side of this engine must have been built by two different technicians with two different batches of lifters.

All the lifters on the left side of the engine (right side in this picture) has the hourglass-shaped oil hole, while the right side lifters (left in the photo) are of the flat variety:

And then I found the first really bad thing in this engine to-date:

Somehow, I've been blessed by the Goddess of Internal Combustion. The lifter bore isn't scarred at all - that lifter must have had that air pocket in it since it was cast and machined. That line down the camshaft is a reflection of light and is not damage on the cam itself:

One bad lifter. Could be a LOT worse!

But back to my idea: If doing the pistons - and therefore bottom end - is such a hassle of time, effort, and cost, what happens if I bolt on a pair of Magnum heads onto this engine and leave the bottom end alone?

My calculations came up with 8.3:1 compression using this combination - and the best part: With a pair of good Maggie heads, all I need are a set of proper-length pushrods to bolt them on - unlike older flat-tappet LAs, this engine has the correct cam and lifter lubrication to make the Magnum swap a case of a head and pushrod swap (and different head bolts) - nothing more.

Plus, I discovered that despite the perfect compression, each exhaust valve won't hold mineral spirits:

With Magnum heads at $200 a pop, rebuilt and shipped off of eBay, I'd be a fool not to go this route.

-Kurt

 

[Ron 73]

That engine is going to be a good deal when your done, looks to be in real decent shape and your new intake looks good on it, pretty cool deal you got going hear by the looks of the car and engine, best of luck with assembly!

 

[cudak888]

That engine is going to be a good deal when your done, looks to be in real decent shape and your new intake looks good on it, pretty cool deal you got going hear by the looks of the car and engine, best of luck with assembly!

Not so sure about that; could have started with a Magnum 5.9 and been farther ahead in overall compression and cost.

Main benefit of this engine is that it's hardly been broken in, while most Magnums have been run into the ground. That, and I couldn't find a single Mag 5.9 locally.

-Kurt

 

[cudak888]

Nothing tonight (though my Magnum exhaust manifold EGR blockoff plate came in).

-Kurt

 

[cudak888]

The internet is a strange place. Found this and a number of other project photos of the car today from the P/O. Never seen them before:

-Kurt

 

[cudak888]

A bit of progress tonight. Opened up my Fel-Pro master gasket set, only to find the timing cover gasket broken:

Went out and bought a Magnum-type aluminum core gasket to replace it with. Nice thing too, as the Magnum gasket does away with the extra bolt hole that the standard gasket provides for the poly-head 318s.


Got the pan on with the Fel-Pro 4-piece pan gasket. Didn't go on too neatly (my love for The Right Stuff and gasket shellac has something to do with this), but I don't expect it to leak either:

Not going to do anything else at this point until the heads are mounted - and I've got a bit of a surprise in store.


-Kurt

 

[cudak888]

Surprise! Found myself a pair of Magnum heads locally in excellent shape.


Cleaned up the decks on both the heads and block, and put them in today with new Fel-Pro head bolts. She's looking nice. Went with HEMI Orange to stay with the '68 police car specs, even though this car stretches the definition of a clone:

Mind you, this is more or less a mockup. I'm short two rockers, pushrods, an intake (the Eddy was there mainly to keep the lifter gallery free of paint as was the oil filter and spark plugs) and that nasty looking lifter.


Still, there's enough here that I can put it in the engine bay and worry about all of that later.


I have a week off, so it's going into the car without drilled heads. I'm going to bite the bullet and dig up a used, Magnum-compatible M1 intake and call it a day. Could be worse.


EDIT: Just realized that the dipstick isn't strictly in its factory spot. Arrugh...


-Kurt

 

[cudak888]

Teardown of the original motor for removal officially began today (complete with a lot of GoPro footage - TBA), and it's pretty much ready for removal as it sits:

There wasn't a single bit of antifreeze in it - just water. I'd hit a rusty gusher every 10 minutes. Oh well, constipated motor.

Photo doesn't show that I made sure to pull the 1967-style, poly-318-compatible timing chain cover before the evening was out. Can't wait to throw that on eBay and (hopefully) turn it into some play money for the rest of the build. Unfortunately, this cover also confirmed my fears - this is a '67 motor with a '67 gasketed distributor. So much for reusing the dizzy. Ah well, it forces me into doing the HEI ignition module upgrade which I planned on anyway.

That said, I made it a point to mock up the large-flange, driver's side 1992-1993 Magnum exhaust manifold (P/N #53006619), as I don't believe I've ever seen photos of the clearance one gets when installing these manifolds in a power-steering equipped B-body:

Looks tight...

...but it isn't:

Rear exit dumps so perfectly between the trans and torsion bar, you'd wonder if Chrysler actually considered backwards compatibility with the B/C-bodies, given the coil-overs in Dakotas and B-series vans. (Please ignore the rubber line on the other side of the torsion bar - that's the previous owner's so-called repair of the trans cooler supply line and should not be found in any stock B-body):

Pretty sure I've heard they don't fit the same SBM w/PS combo in A-bodies, unfortunately. Someone would make a killing repop'ing 340-style manifolds if there weren't so many cheap headers out there.

The saga continues tomorrow...

-Kurt

 

[73JF1Bird]

Awesome!!! Thanks for sharing!!!