After my engine break-in - I find this.

[71Beeper]

I posted this in the my project section.

I had my engine broken in and dyno'd earlier this year (May).
I decided to re-gasket my 360 engine.
So I pull off the oil pan and I find this in the sump.....

The stuff didn't feel gritty when I rubbed it between my fingertips.
I figure it's a combination of cam goo and assembly goo and machining debris.
So I take the oil pan to my engine guy. He says take out the lifters and have a look at them.

I took out the lifters and had a look.

If you look closely there are 3 of them that are not turning in their bores.
Remember these are solid lifters.
The one in the upper right - the 5th one down on the right column and the 6th one down on the left column.

While I was at it I took photos of the cam.
The photos are from the front of the engine to the back.

Notice how the wear is more in the center of the lobe as opposed to being on one side where the lobe taper starts.
Not good.

The cam and lifters are from Hughes engines.
Here's the cam card.
I think this was the lowest lift solid cam at the time - I don't think Hughes sell this cam anymore.

I also used the recommended PAC spring #1111 that's at the bottom of the cam card.

So I call my engine guy to come over and get his opinion on this.
After looking at the cam and lifters his verdict is...............replace them..
Ah crap!

We did everything as correct as possible when prepping the engine for break-in.
The inner valve spring dampers were left off.
The proper break in oil was used.

The proper break-in procedure was used.
I have sent the above photos in an e-mail to Dave at Hughes engines.
I'll wait to see what he has to say.
I do know one thing that is going to be against me.
I bought these parts back in 2015 and they have been in the engine all of this time until I had the funds to get it dyno'd.
But, the rocker shafts were not bolted on and the cam lube was still in tact.

Rant done for now.

 

[JoePole]

Did the lifers come out without effort? How are the lifter bores? Was any work done to them during the build?

 

[4mulas]

not a lot of people so this, but next time it goes together put the lifters in the bore dry and spin the cam by hand and ensure the lifter spins the bore. You may have to shuffle some of them around until all 16 spin in the bore. Then keep track of where they are and assemble the engine like that.

 

[furyus]

The goo on the bottom of the pan was your cam break on lube. It doesn't work if it's not on the cam. I used Joe Gibbs break in oil on my last flat tappet engine. So, when you put it back together, break it in soon so the lube is still on the cam.

 

[69 hemibee]

The goo on the bottom of the pan was your cam break on lube. It doesn't work if it's not on the cam. I used Joe Gibbs break-in oil on my last flat tappet engine. So, when you put it back together, break it in soon so the lube is still on the cam.

I had something like this happen, built a motor and it sat for a few years before I could break it in and all the lube gradually came off. I broke it in and flattened a few cam lobes during the process. Replaced the cam and lifters then broke it in the same day and never had any issues.

I use Brad Penn Racing oil during break-ins for FT cams and have had great success.

 

[zyzzyx]

Thanks for sharing! The lifters need to be checked with a straightedge to see if they indeed have a crown
and the cam definitely looks flat, no taper. Good thing you contacted Hughes about the problem! They
need to know. Nothing happened to that cam mysteriously since you put it together! Good luck, and keep
us posted about your progress.

 

[451Mopar]

I use the lifter bore burnishing ball that Hughes Engines sells to try making the lifter bores totally round.

 

[SGTPaul]

So if you are going to build an engine and it sits for a year, do you pop off the intake and valley pan and lube the cam up before start up? Have not had to let one sit for that long but might have to.

 

[Geoff 2]

Comments:
- if the cam has just break in time on it, there seems to be a LOT of wear on the base circles of the lobes which has minimal load on it.
- in the bottom pic of the cam, seems like hollows in the lobe because the width of the wear mark varies.
- my experience is that Ch engines use tighter lifter bore clearances than other brands, so checking for lifter rotation is vital.
- have lifters that are 25+ yrs old re-faced if you do not want failures.....

 

[Mopar Hunter]

Was the oil pump and engine primed before start up?

 

[Wietse]

Probably the moly paste in the bottom of the sump.
If engine was not opened up and re-applied (or at least checked) the cam lube it likely started with no lubrication at all.
The lube is only there for cranking until it starts and there is oil flow, from there on the engine oil will take over lubrication.
The fact that 3 of them did not turn is not the root cause as all lobes show damage, even on the lobe base section which has the minimal spring pressure.
Also there is quite some scratches on those lifters for just a break-in run.

I've read you are better off using a high quality single grade engine oil with the correct amount anti-wear additives than using break-in oil for breaking in an engine.

 

[PRHeads]

When you get the cam out, check/measure the lobe taper.
Should be .0015-.0020 for a performance application.
I suspect you’ll find it’s closer to .0010, or even less on the lobes where the lifter was tracking down the center.

A couple years ago I did a cam swap on a 360.
The old cam had several lifters that had never rotated........ yet the cam had survived. That’s the 2nd time I had seen that.
Lobe taper on the one out of the 360 was .0005-.0010.

 

[71Beeper]

Okay, I'll try to answer everybody's questions to the best of my ability....
JoePole - the lifters came out with no issues. Looks like the lifter bores were honed. I felt them & there are no sharp edges.
Here's some pics of the lifter bores.

4mulas - I've never heard of that method, but am willing to give it a try when the new cam and lifters arrive.

69hemi bee - I'm starting to wonder if that is the case with mine, but my engine guy thinks there is not enough taper ground into the cam as evidence of the wear marks being near the center.

zyzzyx - I did check the lifters with a straightedge (way too hard to get an accurate picture of it tho) and yes there is a taper on the face. No reply yet from Hughes...I wonder if I'll even get one.
Yes I will provide an update on my project thread under the members restorations section.

451Mopar - I didn't know such a tool existed - I'll have to look into that. Thanks.

SGTPaul - In future I won't let an engine sit for a long period of time. Maybe I should have pulled the intake and re-gooped the cam and lifters.

Geoff 2 - Yes, all the cam has on it is break-in time and 3 dyno pulls. It is possible that this cam does not have the proper Parkerizing treatment done to it. The new cam and lifters will now be coming from Isky - I'm sure they know a thing or two about flat tappet solid cams and lifters.

Mopar Hunter - yes the oil pump was primed before ever turning the engine over - I had a 0.090" groove machined in the #2 and #4 cam bearing journals. Higher end cam manufacturers already do this. Here's a picture of the oil pressure gauge in the dyno room control panel.

Wietse - The Amsoil break-in oil is a single grade oil, its SAE30 and it has more zinc than their ZROD 10W-40 or 20W-50 oils. I will switch to the Brad Penn oil this go around.

PRHeads - I will definitely have the cam checked when it comes out.

Tonight I had my engine guy order a custom ground Isky cam. We took the numbers from the Hughs cam card and applied it to the new cam as close as possible. This Hughes cam worked awesome - with getting 460 horses on the dyno under 6000 rpm. Too bad it had to end this way. One other improvement other than new cam and lifters is I've scored a brand new set of S70026K Harland Sharpe 1.6 roller rockers.

 

[Snook]

Look guys, just leave the flat tappets in the past where they belong when we had good USA metallurgy to depend on. Use a good quality roller from ISKY as an example and bite the bullet. Things are never going to be as good as it was when we had good quality metal to depend on. Sucks but it is what it is. I hate it as much as anyone here.

Chuck (snook)

 

[70rcode]

Hey Beeper,.... Sorry you experienced this results but appreciate you sharing.....Have you cut the oil Filter open & Examined any trapped debris with a Magnet ?? ....Why you used any "Break-In" motor oil Regardless of zinc ppm spec on a Flat tappet cam ?? ...."Break-In" = "Wear-in" of direct contact touching parts & that's Exactly what those oils do Regardless of mfg Claims that it intelligently/chemistry "Extra Protects" cam lobes & flat tappet lifters while "Extra Frictionally" quickly wear Seating piston rings....Other than the settled--out Moly cam lube on pan floor, the cam/lifter wear looks more like really Poor motor oil Wear protection Performance results...Just use a good, regular oil like 10W30 Conventional VR-1 that happens to "Psi wear test" perform much better than the "Instant Friction" stuff you poured in & insulted your carefully built engine with....

 

[WileERobby]

Having been around the game for quite some time, I have to wonder... is the metal itself the culprit ?

 

[451Mopar]

The lifter bores don't look honed, more like sanded?
Should check the lifter to lifter bore clearance, see if the bores were too large?

 

[Wietse]

Wietse - The Amsoil break-in oil is a single grade oil, its SAE30 and it has more zinc than their ZROD 10W-40 or 20W-50 oils. I will switch to the Brad Penn oil this go around.

Basically what 70rcode said:

Why you used any "Break-In" motor oil Regardless of zinc ppm spec on a Flat tappet cam ?? ...."Break-In" = "Wear-in" of direct contact touching parts & that's Exactly what those oils do Regardless of mfg Claims that it intelligently/chemistry "Extra Protects" cam lobes & flat tappet lifters while "Extra Frictionally" quickly wear Seating piston rings....Other than the settled--out Moly cam lube on pan floor, the cam/lifter wear looks more like really Poor motor oil Wear protection Performance results...Just use a good, regular oil like 10W30 Conventional VR-1 that happens to "Psi wear test" perform much better than the "Instant Friction" stuff you poured in & insulted your carefully built engine with....

 

[PRHeads]

When you have the contact pattern tracking down the center of the lobe, that’s not going to end well(compromised lifter rotation.....at best).

And there is no motor oil known to man that’s going to cure that condition.
This was not an oil related failure.

The other thing I notice is.......the lobes that do show some taper, don’t show the “alternating taper” that SB Mopars use.
For each grouping of 4 lobes, two taper one way, two taper the other way.
This is done to neutralize the thrust force of the cam, since it is located by a thrust plate.

A related thread, but with the opposite problem....... too much lobe taper;
Solid cam damage diagnosis help

 

[zyzzyx]

I agree with PRHeads, That pattern running right down the middle tells me the cam was ground flat!