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Cam Timing

Triple Black 73

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I've never built an engine before and my dad has only done stock builds. We built a 383 bored .060 over with a Sealed Power CS-661 cam ( http://fme-cat.com/overlays/part-detail.aspx?brand=SP&PartNumber=CS-661&pt=Camshaft#.UmXVpd_D_IU ), stock heads, stock intake, and a single bolt timing set.

We got it running, but it won't idle below 900 rpm and it won't start unless we pour gas down the carb. Setting the timing anything before at 10 degrees BTDC resulted in backfiring and fire out the carb.

A compression test showed that we have 150 psi in 1 & 3, but just 125 psi in #5. #5 was leaking out the exhaust valve before the piston reach TDC. We didn't test any further.

My dad is thinking bent valve, but I'm thinking cam timing. Other folks posted issues on online of the issues they had with this exact cam. This looks like a popular cam for people looking to add a little more power to an otherwise stock build. One guy said he had the same issue when he set it up dot to dot. Another guy said he had a similar cam that set to 4 degrees advanced with 15 degree BTDC initial timing. http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php?topic=105628.0;wap2

First, question is how do we figure out what the cam timing should be?

Second question, if we take anonymous Mopar guy at face value, what timing gear do we need to set it to 4 degrees at the cam? We currently have this timing set: http://www.enginekits.com/enginetech-complete-engine-timing-components-10258.html https://www.rockauto.com/en/moreinfo.php?pk=5578302&jsn=3

Third, what can we do to make this job easier? Timing tape around the balancer maybe? A degree wheel?

We're have to pull the engine to fix a rear main seal issue. However, this time, we're going to test it on the engine stand before we reinstall it.

Thanks!
 
Degree wheel is the only option that makes sense to me. Especially if you're pulling the engine regardless.
 
You could remove rocker arm from #5 exhaust. If still leaks you have a sealing problem. If it was the cam I'd think all cylinders would be 125 psi. The fact that only one cylinder is low, would say valve problem. Since the valve IS leaking I'd start there. Doubt a bent valve with that mild cam, poor valve job? If cam wasn't put in right all exhaust valves would probably be bent.
 
I've said it before, check the cam centerline with the degree wheel, also make sure the 0 on the damper is really correct TDC, they can change, get a timing tape for the damper. Setting some timing sets by eyeballing the dots can lead to a mistake and I admit to it (by no means my first build, just a quality brand timing set that was hard to really tell when properly lined up tooth off), which kinda sounds like your problem. You will spot it with the degree wheel. Carb issue (vacumn leak) is possible along with something goofy in the distributor. Not sure what question 2 is. Adjusting installed cam timing is really only for advanced racers. If he means 4* advanced compared to lobe centers, that may be already built into the cam. The difference in compression numbers can have many causes, bent valve, ding in the valve job, less ring seal in that hole. Good luck.
 
the cs661 is a duplicate of the magnum cam; i run one with no issue. it has 2 degrees of advance ground into it and seriously doubt any additional advance would be of any value.
 
the cs661 is a duplicate of the magnum cam; i run one with no issue. it has 2 degrees of advance ground into it and seriously doubt any additional advance would be of any value.

Crap. I figured as much. Looks like we'll be pulling the heads. I think I remember something about my dad saying he wasn't sure about the valve job done on the heads. Damn Damn Damn.
 
Crap. I figured as much. Looks like we'll be pulling the heads. I think I remember something about my dad saying he wasn't sure about the valve job done on the heads. Damn Damn Damn.

You still need to check the damper for true TDC & get a timing tape to make sure the cam installed centerline is in the correct location. Pulling the heads isn't too hard. Gives you another chance to look at what you have. A basic bowl port job would be good at this stage. If you have the die grinder & courage do it yourself, if a new valve job is needed, a modern machine shop can cut the deep angle cut taking a lot of the "ridge" out to achieve the "pocket port". Lots of performance gain from that step with any cam. But the valve job sure doesn't seem like the whole problem. Cam timing off or a slipped damper is still the main suspect.
 
the cs661 isn't a bad camshaft for a basically stock 383. of course there are other options, but 383's a fairly easy to mess up with too much cam.
 
You still need to check the damper for true TDC & get a timing tape to make sure the cam installed centerline is in the correct location. Pulling the heads isn't too hard. Gives you another chance to look at what you have. A basic bowl port job would be good at this stage. If you have the die grinder & courage do it yourself, if a new valve job is needed, a modern machine shop can cut the deep angle cut taking a lot of the "ridge" out to achieve the "pocket port". Lots of performance gain from that step with any cam. But the valve job sure doesn't seem like the whole problem. Cam timing off or a slipped damper is still the main suspect.

Good advice. I have a bad *** die grinder with a whole set of killer carbide bits. Those buts can chew through harden steel like butter! However, I'm pretty sure my dad will flip if I even suggested doing a pocket porting. Something like "the engine isn't even running and you want to f'up the ports!" I really just want the car running and at my house at this point. I'll worry about porting and big power when I stroke the original 400 to 512ci.

I'm waiting to hear from the old man before ordering a timing tape, a degree wheel, engine gasket set, a powermaster mini starter, and an adjustable timing chain from Summit Racing. Hopefully, he can get the car running with 15 degrees of timing without doing all this extra work.

Sucks to be so close to having this 20 year project wrapped up but still so far from driving at the same time.
 
Good advice. I have a bad *** die grinder with a whole set of killer carbide bits. Those buts can chew through harden steel like butter! However, I'm pretty sure my dad will flip if I even suggested doing a pocket porting. Something like "the engine isn't even running and you want to f'up the ports!" I really just want the car running and at my house at this point. I'll worry about porting and big power when I stroke the original 400 to 512ci.

I'm waiting to hear from the old man before ordering a timing tape, a degree wheel, engine gasket set, a powermaster mini starter, and an adjustable timing chain from Summit Racing. Hopefully, he can get the car running with 15 degrees of timing without doing all this extra work.

Sucks to be so close to having this 20 year project wrapped up but still so far from driving at the same time.
 
You just need to be really careful with die grinder. If you use stones, much less scary for a first timer, don't cut quick. There is a lot of power in that few 1/4" below the valve seat. Then really check that cam timing location & the damper.
 
Good advice. I have a bad *** die grinder with a whole set of killer carbide bits. Those buts can chew through harden steel like butter! However, I'm pretty sure my dad will flip if I even suggested doing a pocket porting. Something like "the engine isn't even running and you want to f'up the ports!" I really just want the car running and at my house at this point. I'll worry about porting and big power when I stroke the original 400 to 512ci.

I'm waiting to hear from the old man before ordering a timing tape, a degree wheel, engine gasket set, a powermaster mini starter, and an adjustable timing chain from Summit Racing. Hopefully, he can get the car running with 15 degrees of timing without doing all this extra work.

Sucks to be so close to having this 20 year project wrapped up but still so far from driving at the same time.
Are the cam and lifters new? If you remove lifters don't mix them up. They have to go back on the same cam lobe or your asking for trouble.
Not to be smart, why would you put an engine together with a questionable valve job?
 
I've been looking at dbelectric.com for a starter, way cheaper than powermaster.
 
Whoops was going from my beautiful memory, was on another recent post on here. I think(?) dbelec is in Chicago(?)maybe not.
 
Are the cam and lifters new? If you remove lifters don't mix them up. They have to go back on the same cam lobe or your asking for trouble.

The cam and lifters are brand new. Only about 30 minutes of run time on them.

Not to be smart, why would you put an engine together with a questionable valve job?

Sadly, this was an ultra budget build with lots of recycled parts and questionable new parts. The valve job was done like 4 or 5 years ago. The block and crank work was done 20 years ago. I still think it's just the cam timing that is off. Who knows until we dig into it.

Good new is the engine is got pulled today. Tomorrow, my dad is taking the engine down to a local machine shop that builds race engines and does all our machine work. They offered to degree in the cam for free if he brought them the engine.
 
Is it cheaper to do it twice. I'd have the engine builder look into the leaking valve. Compress air into cylinder will tell the tale.
 
I wouldn't pay any attention to that anonymous Mopar guy on Dodgecharger.com. That guy's a dork.
 
Quick and dirty. Pull the driver valve cover bring the engine to TDC compression. Lay a straight edge across the retainers on #1. They should be close to the same height. Now rotate the motor one turn. Lay the straight edge across the #1 retainers again. The cam is now on split overlap. If the cam is straight up and the TDC mark is close both retainers will be the same height.
Doug
 
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