Cam too big, converter too loose....NOT for long!

[Kern Dog]

I have had it with poor street manners. This big cam and high stall converter combo just ain't my thing.
I'm not a drag racer. I do enjoy some straight line fun but cornering is more my thing. Road race, top end, slalom, stuff like that is what I enjoy.
Last year I pulled the '509 cam from my 440/493 in the Charger and slipped in a lumpy Lunati solid lifter cam because I was told that it would eliminate my detonation problem. It did not. What it DID do was actually make it worse since the IVC turned out to be earlier than the 509 cam. Lesson learned? INFORM myself better before making any changes. The 316/326 Lunati has made the car faster than ever at WOT but somewhat lacking in the idle to 3000 range where I drive most of the time. To reduce the detonation, I ended up going with thicker head gaskets which have worked exactly as intended. ZERO knock since january when I made the switch.
After months of reading threads on websites, talking with knowledgeable people and fellow gearheads, I've decided to switch to a smaller cam abd a tighter torque converter. I know that this may make me look like I'm wimping out, but I don't see it that way.
Today I ordered the Mopar Performance 284/528 solid, a set of Howards EDM lifters and a 3 bolt Howards timing set. I also called Lenny at Ultimate Converter and he is building a 11" TC for the car. The 528 cam has a 112 LSA which will deliver better idle vacuum, a broader power band and reduce the risk of detonation. Similar builds using this cam have made 600 lb/ft of torque and 540 or more HP. They all seem to peak under 6000 rpms which is ideal for me.
Stick around. As soon as I get all the parts in, I'll post some results.

 

[benno440]

cool stuff man

 

[HT413]

Cant wait, greg. Hey, btw, why the name change?

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And i dont think its wimping out at all. You took an engine that was built for a 'younger man' lol and are taking the time to adapt it to your use.

 

[Hemi Rebel]

I think you will like that cam. That was in my 68 charger when i bought it. It was an strong. It would twist to 6500 like nothing. Yet mild enough to use gor a daily driver.

 

[Herr_Poopschitz]

Give any thought to a custom cam specific to your combo rather than a one-size-fits-all off the shelf grind?

 

[62 Dart Convertible]

Hey Greg. I had that cam in the 413 when I got it. Stock everything else including converter and it was not too hairy at all. Lots here say in a free breather, that the cam delivers better top end than you'd expect considering it's mild manners. For what you have/want, it sounds like a good choice. You're gonna need to play with jetting all over again though, hey?! :icon_eyes:

 

[Badvert65]

Do you know what your 'old' converter was? The wrong one can really kill any combination. Back in the day, I had a 3500 rpm stall and a friend convinced me to swap it for his 5000 RMP stall converter. (This was in a big block 74 Road Runner). OOF, what a pain to drive (was my daily car). Only time it felt good was wide open throttle. I ended up trading that converter for another 3000 rpm stall converter. My engine had the Mopar 509 cam and 3.91 gears in the back. This worked out great for me. The 5000 stall converter went into a drag only car (where it belonged).
Oh, to be young and foolish.....

 

[Kern Dog]

Cant wait, greg. Hey, btw, why the name change?

Technically I still have the same name! Gregory C Kern. I changed the screen name here and at FABO to match my name at Yellow Bullet. I had different names at different sites and figured i'd go with one name to be easier to reach. I still go by FrankenDuster at Moparts just because it was the first site I joined and sometimes I seem to like to hold onto nostalgia...


Regarding the converter, my current one is a 9 3/4" built to "approx" 3000 stall. I may be being overly critical regarding its performance. I grew up with mild cammed cars with stock TCs so the tight feel is what I am used to having. Guys in their late 50s and older or dedicated racers may be used to the looser feel of a stall converter and be totally fine with it. I spent $500 in 2006. In 2012 I had it opened up and the man made some changes to lower the stall. It maybe made a 200 rpm difference but it was hard to tell. At freeway speeds, it will scram at WOT so its not as if it has excessive slippage.

 

[HT413]

I hear ya on the converter. My car came with a 4000 stall converter and with the gear change, stickier tires, etc, she stalled at 4500. What a bitch on the street.

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I since went with a more stock converter and it's great on the street, though I think a 3000 stall is where I'm going next.

 

[bigmanjbmopar]

Main reason I set my 493 up for the street and to run on our 91 or even 89 if need be
I can help out with info if you need it.

 

[ga66mopar]

I have been down this road before also. I big cam and a loose converter and 410 gears are fun if your racing but not too fun to cruise around in. I like to stay with a cam with duration around 230 at 50,000 and a 2300 stall with 323 gears.

 

[Kern Dog]

Well I guess you can add me to the long list of guys that had to learn the hard way. I had a feeling that the Lunati would be more "race" oriented than I wanted but SOOoooo many guys claimed that these 500" engines are so torquey, I'd never notice as long as I had a high stall converter.
Road race and autocross has always been a tiny fraction of the Mopar community so I really should have known better than to use drag race reasoning to build a street engine.
My 2007 Ram has 3.55 gears and an overdrive. At 55 it is cruising at 1750 rpms and pulls clean when I lean into it. It still pulls strong to almost 6000 rpms. Some people wonder whay a man would build a 500"+ engine then use a small cam. I figure that the additional cubes and stroke make the engine much more responsive in the very range that we spend 98% of our time...Part throttle between 2000-3500 rpms.
I've read that the MP lash of .028 and .032 is considered too wide by some. I'm going to start there and see how it runs. Tighter lash make the cam seem bigger, opens the intake earlier and closes it later. I run the Lunati at exactly what they call for. Maybe the new cams have different ramp designs that allow a tighter lash?
Anyhow, if the only drawback to the wide lash is a little clacking, I'm cool with that.

 

[62 Dart Convertible]

Anyhow, if the only drawback to the wide lash is a little clacking, I'm cool with that.

I went from that cam to a Lunati Hydraulic and I can't say I miss the mechanical clatter!!

 

[Meep-Meep]

You will like the .528" MoPar cam. Ran one in my 383 and no street drivability issues at all. Even got it to pass smog when we had to do that in CA. I ran a stock 318 police converter (stalled about 1800) and with a 4.88" dana the car ran 12.65. Figure every bit of a 3700 lb car as raced. It also sounds nice if you can live with the solid lifters.

 

[Kern Dog]

"You're gonna need to play with jetting all over again though, hey?! "

Yeah, but that is exactly why I stopped with the tuning earlier this year. I figured that since the current combo wasn't right for me, there was no reason to spend much more time trying to optimize the A/F ratio. Sorta like painting a house that you plan to tear down...
The engine parts came the day after I called Summit but the converter will take a couple more weeks. I've considered changing the cam first. I just bought some Brad Penn 20w50 for the break in.
Back to the tuning: I bought a Quick Fuel primary metering block with replaceable PVCR fittings. I need to get a few additional sizes to have on hand for tuning. In the current setup, the car runs rich at cruise and WOT. When I reduced the jet size, power suffered. I figure if I can lean down the jets but increase the fuel supply through the power valve, I should run cleaner while making the same power.

 

[Herr_Poopschitz]

I'm curious why one would choose a cam described as below for an engine that is over 100 ci bigger w/ different bottom end geometry and flow requirements? Please teach me.

You will like the .528" MoPar cam. Ran one in my 383 and no street drivability issues at all. Even got it to pass smog when we had to do that in CA. I ran a stock 318 police converter (stalled about 1800) and with a 4.88" dana the car ran 12.65. Figure every bit of a 3700 lb car as raced. It also sounds nice if you can live with the solid lifters.

 

[Kern Dog]

I looked at the specs. It is listed to have between 241-243 degrees on duration @ .050 depending on who you ask. I needed a cam in that range to move my power band down to the 1500-5800 zone. The 528 also has a 112 LSA which helps reduce the risk of detonation as well as improving idle vacuum. Solid cams use solid lifters; The EDM lifters reduce the risk of cam failures and with all the failures of hydraulic lifters lately, I'm sold on solids.
I see no reason why a street engine needs to rev to 7000 rpms. The Lunati cam was listed as having an rpm range of 4700-7200 in a 383-440 engine. Even taking into account my longer stroke and added cubes, that range could only be adjusted around 600-700 rpms. That still makes for a 4000-6500 rpm range.
The 528 may have been designed to be used in a 383-440 because when it was introduced, stroked engines of this size were not as common as today. It is well known that cubic inches eat up duration. A 383 with this cam will lope more than a 500" engine will. This means that I could have the torque of a 500" engine with the idle quality and streetability of a stock 383. If this cam blows the tires off from idle but conks out around 6000 rpms, I'm totally fine with that.
Andy Finkbeiner wrote an article years back where the 528 cam made more average power than 5 bigger cams he tested. The article was titled "Lobe-ology".
The Mopar performance Chassis books list the 528 as an upgrade to the 292/509 cam. I ran the 509 cam and liked its performance but didn't like the low vacuum and rough idle. The 528 is known to run smoother while still making more power.

 

[Meep-Meep]

I'm curious why one would choose a cam described as below for an engine that is over 100 ci bigger w/ different bottom end geometry and flow requirements? Please teach me.

Because not everyone needs to have a .650" lift cam for a street car. The .528" / 284 in a 500" engine might be just the ticket to put the power band at a very usable range for the owner. This is a very nice 4000 lb car that probably has an OD or tall gears and will make (has made) an occasional 800 mile trip. I believe optimizing the fuel curve and low end torque is the goal here, and with the stronger vacuum signal of the 112 or wider LSA makes it so much easier to tune. A strong vacuum signal is what carburetors live for. The 112 LSA will provide just a bit more overlap to move the power band up to the excitement level but not so much it becomes a problem, so I'm thinking this isn't the worst choice he can make. Think a stock 440 magnum that is proportionally stronger over the entire RPM range. Ever hear of a 500 Cad? It's not uncommon to have .460" lift and 260 duration in one of those, and that is considered a mild performance cam.

 

[Kern Dog]

Thanks for backing me up on this, Meep-Meep. The goal of the whole thing IS to improve street manners. I've complained for years that the car feels sluggish at freeway speeds. When I'm tooling along at 65-70, sometimes I just need another 10 mph to pass someone. The loose converter makes the car feel like a boat on the water. It slips if I just tip the throttle or tightens up as I press harder and I'm at 85-90 mph, faster than I wanted. Its not smooth and predictable like a street car should be.
The tuning will start again but I'm actually anxious to do that. I would have jumped in and had this done already but I have been so busy with LIFE, I've not had the chance!

 

[Meep-Meep]

Logic is where you find it and I'll back that all day long. If the goal is to drive the car on the street regularly then build a car that will play nice in the RPM range that you will spend all your time in. And certainly tighten up that converter to improve efficiency and enjoy the ride. Best of luck with the mods.