Electrician's out there? Home power generation.

[Propwash]

A kinda off the wall question, but i'm not finding a lot of interactive on line help.

I've been researching home power generation (solar/wind) for a couple months now through means of books/video's/articles. Basically sick of paying to the man when well, the sun seems to keep on risings and the wind continues to blow.

So, if I made a wind turbine from a 12 volt DC generator such as an automotive alternator or even a 120V motor from lets say a treadmill, could I in theory, run those wires to a DC to AC inverter and plug that into a GFI outlet off a 30AMP breaker, thus feeding power back to my home/grid? I've read and watched that it works, but being a bit ignorant to home/120V AC circutry, i'm a bit hesitant.

Would it make more sense to run the wires from the generator to a controller then a few deep cycles, then to an inverter, then to a plug? Or better yet, wire into the breaker box with a disconnect somewhere.

Appreciate any help.

 

[440roadrunner]

There is only one correct answer

You need to check first with your local power company.

And if you intend to do this, you need to hire a QUALIFIED (I do not just mean licensed) electrician, so by qualified I mean someone who has experience with such things as generator switch panels and so on

You MUST have some means of INSURING that your power generation system can NOT feed power into a dead line, IE if the commercial power goes down the generation system must disconnect from the line.

This also means you cannot "jury rig" stuff. You either must use UL approved components, or a certified design by an electrical engineer, undoubtedly reviewed and approved by the power company and state inspectors. This can get expensive.

Let's take a worst case situation. Let's say that you are on a country road, and the only customer on a rural transformer, not a stretch, I assure you. If something should happen like a snow/ windstorm that takes down the power lines, pops the pole fuse, etc, you could have a situation where the power guys expect to find a transformer that is dead on "your side" of the line, when in reality, you are feeding power INTO the thing.

Power companies frown on having your stuff kill their guys.

 

[RustyRatRod]

I know about as much about it as to fit on the head of a pin. BUT, I did wire my own 100 amp service to my shop, plus wire a power transfer 6 circiut box to the house for use when the power goes out and I can just plug my 7K watt generator right into the side of the house and rock on....so I DO have a little experience. However, the only thing I think I can add....you probably already know and that's this. It is illegal as all hell to feed power back INTO the grid. So, you have to have something similar to what I have on my house. This is VERY similar to what I have mounted on our back porch just outside the back door. It is a simple switch panel that allows you to hook up an outside power source (in my case, my 7K watt generator) and switch FROM the grid TO the outside power source. You will need something similar.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/NEW-RELIANC...747?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item1e70b963ab

I will also add that in the state of Georgia, the homeowner does NOT have to be licensed. All that is required is an inspection by the county agent.

 

[Meep-Meep]

I can't comment on the legality of feeding the grid (though it seems the above posts covered it very well) but I will point you to my signature line. The long answer is that if solar and wind were such a great untapped power source you couldn't stop the power company from using it and selling it to us. The utility company seems to be universally hated but where can you get it cheaper? If you live in an area that is so far away from power lines and the cost of getting service to your house is about what your house is worth, then maybe it's time to look at other options. But in most cases power is easily available or already hooked up.

Taking the sun and converting it to electricity involves big losses. Then you take that DC power and covert it again to A/C with more losses. If your goal is 1200 watts (10 amps at 120V) you would need a lot of sun and/or wind. How many watts per sq in can you get out of a Chinese made US gov't subsidized solar panel? If the sun had any substantial power per square inch a lot of stuff would be on fire daily. It just isn't so. The data that I saw is 130W per square foot, and that's not constant. How much torque can a wind mill produce to turn a 1200W generator? How big does the blade have to be or how high the wind speed? A car alternator already puts out three phase AC before the rectifiers but it requires voltage applied at the field to produce output. The more voltage the higher output. Since 746 watts = 1 HP you would need just under 2 HP out of that windmill to get 1200 watts. Installing any of these would also require permits (in CA anyway) and if approved I'm sure the city would consider this an upgrade and increase your property taxes. The gift that keeps on giving!

Now we look at a gas generator. A 1200W generator has about a 3 foot cube footprint. It runs on fuel and consumes .14 gallons (about a pint) per hour at full load. For the amount of potential energy that you can hold in one hand you can get, let's say, 1000W for an hour. Now what if this were converted to run on natural gas, which is considerably cheaper than gasoline or diesel? Even so I don't believe the efficiency would rival the utility companies.

Batteries are not the answer either and I consider them to be a convenience item and not a power source. What they are is a storage battery that needs to be charged periodically, and with charging comes losses.

There may be errors in my thinking or overlooked facts so feel free to jump in and correct me, but with mickey mouse mathematics and following the money trail I don't think I'm too far off. My conclusion: Get better insulation and keep paying the utility company.

 

[shag766]

i did check into this some time ago and if i remember right the bottom line for supplying a home was the storage, batteries. here anyway you can not feed back to the grid without certification from the hydro company, goverment, and only with approved means.
i took another route and put in a generator, propane fired as the whole house is propane. i fire it up 2-3 times a month and let it run at the peak pricing periods but it will come on auto with hydro out. house is 200 watt service and generator is 100 watt. i wouldn't want to weld and have stove or dryer on at same time. other than that it does the whole joint and as mentioned liquid fuel is cheap. good luck with you choice but if the poop hits the fan and its not approved you will have no insurance, at least here anyway.:eusa_think:

 

[68sportsatelliteragtop]

Will, from reading your post it sounds like you are interested in a wind generating system. As others have posted, you cannot legally rig up your own system and connect it to your utility powered electrical panel. All equipment must be UL, or equal, certified and installed as it is intended. All that being said, all of the solar or wind generating systems that I see installed on private residences are designed to put whatever excess power they produce back into the power grid and the utility is required to pay you for your input. The system is designed to shut down whenever the utility power goes off thereby leaving the power line dead and also you in the dark. There are also systems that allow you to charge a series of batteries, that work with an invertor, and provide 120/240 volt power for your useage. These systems are called stand alone systems and mostly are not tied into the power grid, although they can be wired into the grid using a listed isolating transfer switch, thus proving you power as a stand by system.

If you are wanting to experiment with an alternator or AC motor, have at it , but make it a stand alone type deal, with proper overcurrent protection and hook it up to some auxilary type loads, i.e.- extra shop lights, a couple gfi protected recepticles in your shop etc, that are not tied into your house/shop electrical service. There are rules in the NEC that provide for saftey measures when doing so, reguarding main disconnecting means and labelling of equipment to allow others, firemen/power co. workers, etc, to be aware of your alternate source. Your insurance company might not be happy with you if you have a problem related to your home made rig, but that is up to you. If you want to go large scale to power your house service, that size system would be best bought and installed through a licensed and insured electrical contractor who is experienced in those type of installations. Good luck with your science experiment and be safe!

 

[bigmanjbmopar]

What you just described will work to power and charge you RC toys but stay way from your home power source, I know it's frustrating but any work of that nature needs to be done by qualified electricians NOT homeowners! I am a licensed electrical contractor trust me! Let one of the pro's take care of it.

 

[BIGSHCLUNK]

This has been an intresting read. I have no desire to try it but I understand the want. I remember years ago when 'mother earth news' had a series of aticles on " living off the grid" and having the fantasy of of not paying the local utility.

Good luck on your project.

 

[mopar367]

As 440roadrunner said its a good idea and may work, but when the Hydro workers are expecting a dead line and your rigged up system is feeding it power... The results could turn out very badly.

 

[Pops1967GTX]

Last spring, Bar/restaurant in Sugar loaf NY installed a wind turbine. They didn’t think the Wind turbine would cause a problem. They have all the proper paper work & permits...People are complaining about the turbine and the noise it makes at different speeds. A dozen families are retaining a lawyer for that reason. Make sure you look into this unseen problems.......

 

[Moparsmitty]

Last spring, Bar/restaurant in Sugar loaf NY installed a wind turbine. They didn’t think the Wind turbine would cause a problem. They have all the proper paper work & permits...People are complaining about the turbine and the noise it makes at different speeds. A dozen families are retaining a lawyer for that reason. Make sure you look into this unseen problems.......

Good point Pops. Wind turbine generators can be very noisy. Not just for the neighbors, but for you too. Best if you can see/hear one installed and working up close before you commit to a big project.

 

[Budnicks]

Don't do it....

I have a 35+ year construction/contractor background, I had a friend & fellow contractor, that sold solar & wind systems {he no longer sells them}, I spent $20k for a wind generator 400-watt wind generator {maybe put out 200-watt ever, max} & also solar water heating for the pool & solar electricity, off 16 3'x5' panels, for the house, that only actually put out about 75-watts per 3'x5' panel at peak efficacy average, they were supposed to be 150-watt to 225-watt max per panel, but not anywhere near the 10-15-watts per square ft. they are supposedly be capable of, to assist powering my house & pool in Rancho Murieta Ca., with great hot sunshine, 6-7-8 months of the year, alway breezy evenings, from the delta breeze, I though perfect scenario, for green energy, about 6-7 or so years ago now maybe, my bills were only $70 a month or so on a full electric house on S.M.U.D. {Sacramento Municipal Utility District}, before the solar/wind upgrades, I bought into the whole BS of the S.M.U.D. energy company, buying "all that extra energy I was going to make, back from me", YEAH RIGHT, it only dropped my electric bill to about $35 = to $35 savings average a month, in the summer months & maybe $50 = to $20 savings in the winter months, between the batteries upkeep & replacements {a place to store them that was dry, cool & vented} the ugly *** panels on the roof, that many HOA won't even allow, the inverter costs, that $20k would take @ $330 a year average total savings, is about 60 years to pay back the actually cost of the installation, in savings, let alone the revenue I never recieved...LOL... & the loss of interest on the $20k removed from the bank/savings, battery up-keep/replacement, service calls etc., you get the point, it's a no win situation at least for me it was, money is far better spent on something else, unless the technology is far better now {like 20 times better} than it was 5 years ago, I wouldn't do it ever again... When the power goes out here in Sonora & it does quite often in the winter, I run the refrigerator, TV, Microwave & a the heater, which is propane & a gas powered electric generator, with heavy duty extension cords for the time being, I am going to run some separate outlets for the appliances, fed from the generator, some time in the future, separate from the regular electric supply, so I only need to supply those outlets with power.... It's all BS IMHO typical lies, hype & deceit, I'm still waiting for all them checks...LOL...

 

[440roadrunner]

...LOL...

Screw all that. I just want the names of your sisters!!!!! LOL

 

[shag766]

right on

Last spring, Bar/restaurant in Sugar loaf NY installed a wind turbine. They didn’t think the Wind turbine would cause a problem. They have all the proper paper work & permits...People are complaining about the turbine and the noise it makes at different speeds. A dozen families are retaining a lawyer for that reason. Make sure you look into this unseen problems.......

we have a huge battle, mess, f/u or whatever you want to call it going on here in ontario right now over this same scenerio. :eusa_think:

 

[Pops1967GTX]

Screw all that. I just want the names of your sisters!!!!! LOL

See Now...... those outfits are solar if I ever seen ones!!!!!!!!

 

[b-star69]

i think the original question was about alturnitive energy sorce and going off the grid. it is imposible to go off the grid. they simply will not let you. i know someone who bought an old mill. he turned it into a house and ran generator off the water wheel. the "guberment" found out about it and forced him to hook up to GA. power. now the power co. pays him for power. as far as partial solar/windmill power it is costly to install with small reward. as for generator your gona need a transfer switch so as not to kill the linemen.

 

[Budnicks]

they are hot alright

See Now...... those outfits are solar if I ever seen ones!!!!!!!!

They are solar/hot for sure, I love seeing women eating Ice Cream, it's so American... Let me clarify that, "SMOKEN' HOT women, eating Ice Cream" :headbang:

 

[Budnicks]

i think the original question was about alturnitive energy sorce and going off the grid. it is imposible to go off the grid. they simply will not let you. i know someone who bought an old mill. he turned it into a house and ran generator off the water wheel. the "guberment" found out about it and forced him to hook up to GA. power. now the power co. pays him for power. as far as partial solar/windmill power it is costly to install with small reward. as for generator your gona need a transfer switch so as not to kill the linemen.

I totally agree... As you can see in my earlier post, it's not really cost effective for the average person... :argue:

 

[b-star69]

x2 securty lights, well pumps, walk way lights,ect.ok not total home systems.

 

[Propwash]

A lot of great advice, tips, and thoughts guys. I appreciate it. I have quite a bit to go off and a bunch of location specific details to get sorted out before I move forward or just scrap the idea.

Thanks for all of your time/thoughts on this.