F.A.S.T. 505/535 build

[DAMatt]

Hi guys,

I have been lurking on here for quite some time reading, but this is my first time posting.

So please let me introduce myself & my car; my name is Matt, and I am from Europe - Transylvania more exactly, and I have a numbers matching 1968 Dodge Charger R/T with a stock rebuilt 440 bored .030 over.

Since about a year or so, I have taken a liking to fast & psmcdr, because of the fact that they take cars that look that they belong in a concours, but they rocket down the strip.

From reading the rules, I wouldn't be competitive in psmcdr, since I would be restricted to the 4bbl (1968...). I thus began to search for f.a.s.t. builds, but information is very scarce, like a closely guarded secret. What I know so far is that I need a good set of ported 906 heads, a stroker kit, and a cam that works best for a restrictive intake & exhaust.

About a year ago I talked with IQ52, and he talked me out of it, because of my limited experience, and lack of competent help in my area. Since then my knowledge & experience has increased, but still I am no Steve Dulcich - I would say I graduated from being a beginner to average. I also found a competent, old school mechanic, who did great custom fabrication on my Kenne Bell'd Jag.

I would be greatful if I could get some pointers from you on how to proceed.

1. How to go around getting the best ported heads? I found these, what do you think?

mopar 440 heads 906 | eBay

906 casting heads. Mopar 2.090 / 1.740 Performance Valves. Dual springs, viton seals,COMP Cams 626-16 Set of 16 - 10 Degree, 3/8", 2 and 4 Groove Locks for Chrysler Comp Cams 10 Degree Superlock. has been tested not cracks or broken. down and tested on an active engine.

www.ebay.com

2. I would prefer a low rpm motor at the same hp level, so I would chose the largest kit available (535). However there are only 2 things I would need your opinion on: a. is BLOCK longevity affected if I don't go over 6000rpm?? I don't care if the pistons wear faster; and b. how complicated/unsightly is an external oil system? Would I have to change the stock oil pan for something that looks racey? Is there a stealthy looking system?

3. Cam? Is there a roller cam that can be used for this build? I would rather avoid the risk of flat tappet cam run-in. And just humor me, what would happen if I would leave the stock Mopar Performance cam? Take a guess at the hp & rpm.

4. Any other things to consider? I am thinking of adding a girdle to stabilize the two bolt mains, and bore out the factory intake. BTW, anybody knows somebody that can do that, or how to do that & get results?

I want to keep the 178 intake manifold, especially for the factory A/C, & also the original manifolds. I want to keep the original Carter AVS that was rebuilt by Scott. I also want to keep the stamped steel rockers.

I am also seeking advice for my suspension setup, and r134 conversion for my factory A/C, but I wanted my first post to be more interesting, so here it is

So if you have knowledge you are willing to share for my winter project, it would be greatly appreciated.

 

[PlymCrazy]

Hmmmm...the day after Halloween and we get a fella from Transylvania join the forum? I won't believe it until I see pics of that '68 Charger R/T!

Greetings and welcome to FBBO from NY! Sounds like a nice rig you're building! You're sure to get your answers around here!

 

[PurpleBeeper]

1. not sure
2. no stealth oil system that I am aware of. External oiling is really noticeable. Maybe look at a 498-500 cubic inch stroker?
3. Roller cam cannot be used with stock rocker arms. Stock cam will be terrible

 

[RemCharger]

Certainly a wonderful idea...........
I doubt they build these engines for longevity like you're probably thinking though....

 

[DAMatt]

Good to be here!

As asked, I will oblige: here's a few pics from when the restoration was almost completed, car had the concours bias ply goodyears. Last pic was on the Transfagarasan, which you may know as the best driving road in the world as proclaimed by Jeremy Clarkson I was there 2 weeks ago, it was EPIC!

 

[Aron Gleason]

My suggestion would be to talk to Dave Dudek. When it comes to fast racing, he's nailed it.

 

[Canadian1968]

im interested in what people think of those 906 heads you posted on Ebay. They are supposed to flow 300+ CFM. From the pics I see very little if any signs of extensive porting, looks like all factory casting finish in the bowls, and no pictures of either the exhaust or intake ports?

 

[INTMD8]

1. How to go around getting the best ported heads? I found these, what do you think?

http://[URL]https://www.ebay.com/it...98&osub=-1~1&crd=20221031204521&segname=11050

[/URL]

Probably just a coincidence.

Mopar 906 Cylinder Head Improvements - Mopar Muscle Magazine.

 

[BSB67]

I'm not totally clear on your goal. Are you wanting to be class legal FAST and plan on competing and passing tech, or maybe FAST like? Will you want to put on a lot of street miles and use pump gas?

What is your budget?

1) I'm a skeptic on the EBay heads. I have more than that into a set of factory heads and they don't flow anywhere near that. Do your homework on this.

2) Maximum power and arbitrary rpm limit are contradictory. Go for the power you want, and the rpm will be what it is. It'll be fine. On my 500 cu.in. motor I used the 6 pack oil pan, stock stroke windage tray, scraper, and an inexpensive laser cut steel girdle. Seems to work okay to 6,700 rpm, not that it spends much time there.

3) Yes. Stock cam=not being very serious about power at the FAST level and you've wasted money on everything else.

The intake manifold is a killer. Reach out to Cudadude2, he has figured it out.

If you deviate a little from the FAST rules, making good power is a bit easier. Removing 600 lbs helps too.

Nice car!

 

[INTMD8]

^ If you check the magazine article link, they quote the -exact- same flow numbers (and look a hell of a lot better).

The ebay heads are definitely BS

 

[kiwigtx]

Hmmmm...the day after Halloween and we get a fella from Transylvania join the forum?

That's almost what I thought also.

Welcome to FBBO @DAMatt ....from New Zealand. Some good looking iron you have there.

 

[DAMatt]

Thanks for the replies guys!

My suggestion would be to talk to Dave Dudek. When it comes to fast racing, he's nailed it.

That is exactly what I did about a month ago, he has not replied - maybe he's mad at me Anybody knows him personally to confirm whether he'd build an engine for me?

Are there any other recommended engine builders that would have experience with the stock 906 heads & strokers? I only know of Jim (IQ52), but I understand he is busy. I am also considering the option of buying a tired '68 440 & send it for a full build, that way I keep the matching #s motor in storage & out of harm's way.

Probably just a coincidence.

Mopar 906 Cylinder Head Improvements - Mopar Muscle Magazine.

You sir just saved my behind. I can't believe he just copy/pasted the info! Both times I've been over the pond I've met only nice, polite & honest Americans, it seems I have rose-tinted glasses... I'm not familiar woth your justice system, but over here it constitutes attempted fraud. Actually after seeing little signs of porting, along with stock valve sizes, that's the main reason I asked you guys whether you believe these are over 300cfm.

I'm not totally clear on your goal. Are you wanting to be class legal FAST and plan on competing and passing tech, or maybe FAST like? Will you want to put on a lot of street miles and use pump gas?

What is your budget?

1) I'm a skeptic on the EBay heads. I have more than that into a set of factory heads and they don't flow anywhere near that. Do your homework on this.

2) Maximum power and arbitrary rpm limit are contradictory. Go for the power you want, and the rpm will be what it is. It'll be fine. On my 500 cu.in. motor I used the 6 pack oil pan, stock stroke windage tray, scraper, and an inexpensive laser cut steel girdle. Seems to work okay to 6,700 rpm, not that it spends much time there.

3) Yes. Stock cam=not being very serious about power at the FAST level and you've wasted money on everything else.

The intake manifold is a killer. Reach out to Cudadude2, he has figured it out.

If you deviate a little from the FAST rules, making good power is a bit easier. Removing 600 lbs helps too.

Nice car!

I have to admit I am also not very clear on some of my goals. I don't know how likely it would be to send my car over the Atlantic to compete in FAST (though it would be totaly cool!), but perhaps I want to know that if I would, I could. That keeps my little fantasy alive. I immagine that with a set of Max Wedge port heads, I could take the little 440 to the stratosphere, and make hp as much as the block can handle (torque is another matter though). But I am OK with a lower rpm, higher displacement engine - I actually prefer it.

So I would want an engine that could pass FAST tech. But I am open to anything the rules say I can do - and also to anything that the rules don't say I can't do

Pump gas is mandatory. We don't have readily available race gas in Europe. What we do have is 94 (100 RON). I am not planning to put many miles in it, 3000/yr tops.

Budget is flexible. That being said, of course I would be happy to get a good deal, because every penny matters. I am curoius what a max effort vs. decent build would cost. I feel my budget would find its sweet spot somewhere in between.

I think my ultimate goal is to have a car that is concours-ready, but can do a solid 10 second pass - 9s I think are reserved for Hemis/ 440-6. That means all of the interior stays, the two things I am most proud of are the factory A/C that worked till recently, and the WORKING 8 track / AM radio, rebuilt by Barry. Today you can get a 20k RS6, and with a tune & turbo upgrade it already dips into the 9s, so that's why I think it's special to see a car that looks like it rolled off the showroom floor in 1968 go that fast, with The Animals blasting through its 5 1/2 watt speakers!

That's almost what I thought also.

That must be my next halloween costume
I've been to NZ back in 2009 - Awesome country, awesome people, awesome food, and I'll never forget the Gs (poth positive, and negative) in the Pitts Special biplane I took a ride in!

 

[BB BELLA]

I highly doubt any car can make a 9-10 sec. pass and somebody would think it appeared stock! the closest one I can think of is!

 

[Big bill]

Nice car ,fast cars are heavily modified every part of the the car is rigged . It's not just the motor !

 

[BB BELLA]

Nice car ,fast cars are heavily modified every part of the the car is rigged . It's not just the motor !

a couple turbos on Bella and she'd be a close candidate, got the legs with the 6 speed zf!

 

[dvw]

I highly doubt any car can make a 9-10 sec. pass and somebody would think it appeared stock! the closest one I can think of is!

I watched my sons buddy's Mustang run last weekend. All stock except: a under hood super charger, injectors, stock size drag radials, E85 tune. I was astounded to see it run 9.63@140 at 4200lbs. I made a pass in my sons Hellcat Redeye Charger same day. Sticky tires but bone stock 10.70. close to 4500lbs
Doug

 

[velocityss1985]

KG Proprietary Favorites | kgengines These guys do a good CNC ported 906 head reasonably.

F.A.S.T. 906 head Good read

K&G Engines CNC Port 906 Heads

 

[Curiousyellow71]

What you have can run really hard, follow the spirit of F.A.S.T. stroker, good heads(not those ebay heads), cam, etc. A big part of F.A.S.T is crazy high compression to push the exhaust through 2 1/2 pipes and manifolds, and intake and carb mods that are beyond custom. With pump gas you will be limited. Go 540+ cubes, more cubic inches is friendly making power w lower compression. Playing w the ex. Manifolds and pump gas is going to be a BIG challenge.
Don't worry about setting any records, race against yourself..have fun. You go to fast then safety equipment will be required.

 

[Geoff 2]

DAMatt,
I think you need to re-think your goal. Low rpm 505 is not going to run 10s. It would need high-er rpms to run 10s. Car is beautiful!

 

[DAMatt]

KG Proprietary Favorites | kgengines These guys do a good CNC ported 906 head reasonably.

F.A.S.T. 906 head Good read

K&G Engines CNC Port 906 Heads

I actually read those threads some time ago, and found out about KG, thanks for making me remember about them. The thread about the f.a.s.t. 906 head was the one that made me reach out to Jim in the first place. BTW, I tried to contact him both here, and on the *other* site, but his inbox is full. I was also given the tip of talking to Dwayne Porter (fast68plymouth), but I can't send him a PM. Dave Dudek is again impossible to find - or I am really not good at reaching people.

What you have can run really hard, follow the spirit of F.A.S.T. stroker, good heads(not those ebay heads), cam, etc. A big part of F.A.S.T is crazy high compression to push the exhaust through 2 1/2 pipes and manifolds, and intake and carb mods that are beyond custom. With pump gas you will be limited. Go 540+ cubes, more cubic inches is friendly making power w lower compression. Playing w the ex. Manifolds and pump gas is going to be a BIG challenge.
Don't worry about setting any records, race against yourself..have fun. You go to fast then safety equipment will be required.

Interesting bit of info on high CR & manifolds, kind of makes sense... If 9.5 is max CR for iron on 91, how much compression would 94 octane buy me?

Unfortunately for performance, I am adamant that I keep the factory logs, and forego headers. Perhaps having a real challenge like keeping the iron intake & manifolds makes it interesting, and worth pursuing

DAMatt,
I think you need to re-think your goal. Low rpm 505 is not going to run 10s. It would need high-er rpms to run 10s. Car is beautiful!

I am leaning more and more toward a big inch, 543 build. Coupled with the best ported 906s & a cam made for factory manifolds, what would be a realistic ET & more importantly mph?

I have seen factory looking hemis post mid 9s times, and 440s into the 10s.

In any case, first step would be to find somebody that would take my build... It seems harder than I first thought.